Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread

[daizawaguy]

I have always imagined outwork is at least in the same country never realize it gets flown around the world…

It's not something that gets much coverage, but as you have a huge pool of talent in Japan (schools are turning out shoemakers by the dozens, and hundreds of artisans based in Japan, many of whom have returned to Japan after studying in the UK and Italy), this makes sense when you think of it - postage is pretty reasonable - in fact many of the great independent names you hear about have at least the bottom work done in Japan. The going rate I had heard was $350 or so - guess that includes material charges (maybe not), which is not huge for the amount of time it takes to hand welt and hand stitch a sole! But thats the market where there are hundreds of shoe makers and not an equivalent amount of customers to make an economic match. In fact, I remember one of the shoemakers with initials SM tell me that he makes less making bespoke shoes than he used to as an English teacher. English teachers in Japan make an average 250,000-350,000 ($2300-3200) Yen a month. Given that this coincides with the price of a bespoke pair in Japan - and shoemakers make say 12 pairs a year, maybe 24 (if they were to make it all themselves), and 1/4 is material costs, then you can see the economics - overseas makers would rather get some volume on a price that way exceeds the price of Japanese bespoke shoes, sometimes double, and pay a Japanese bottom maker $350 as this I would say is the most intensive part of the shoe labor wise. Guess my comments will bring up a discussion, but thats why we are here on this forum.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I have always imagined outwork is at least in the same country never realize it gets flown around the world…

Shoes are sent all over. Within the country of the brand of course most common, but it can be to Estonia, Germany, Japan and so on. Plenty of Japanese makers do work for European brands.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

It's not something that gets much coverage, but as you have a huge pool of talent in Japan (schools are turning out shoemakers by the dozens, and hundreds of artisans based in Japan, many of whom have returned to Japan after studying in the UK and Italy), this makes sense when you think of it - postage is pretty reasonable - in fact many of the great independent names you hear about have at least the bottom work done in Japan. The going rate I had heard was $350 or so - guess that includes material charges (maybe not), which is not huge for the amount of time it takes to hand welt and hand stitch a sole! But thats the market where there are hundreds of shoe makers and not an equivalent amount of customers to make an economic match. In fact, I remember one of the shoemakers with initials SM tell me that he makes less making bespoke shoes than he used to as an English teacher. English teachers in Japan make an average 250,000-350,000 ($2300-3200) Yen a month. Given that this coincides with the price of a bespoke pair in Japan - and shoemakers make say 12 pairs a year, maybe 24 (if they were to make it all themselves), and 1/4 is material costs, then you can see the economics - overseas makers would rather get some volume on a price that way exceeds the price of Japanese bespoke shoes, sometimes double, and pay a Japanese bottom maker $350 as this I would say is the most intensive part of the shoe labor wise. Guess my comments will bring up a discussion, but thats why we are here on this forum.

No one enters shoemaking to make money, that goes globally ? Agree with a lot, though not sure where the "12 pairs a year" comes in, very few who are down on those numbers, especially if they make shoes full time.

 

[daizawaguy]

though not sure where the "12 pairs a year" comes in, very few who are down on those numbers, especially if they make shoes full time.

Ha! Well, here...

Report - Main-d'Or / Eiji Murata - Shoegazing.com

He has produced some of the world's finest shoes for over 12 years, he is highly praised by the bespoke shoemaking colleagues in Japan, and basically

shoegazing.com

"He only makes about 15 pairs a year"

I figured 12-24 (the upper end for this that outsource out work, and are fortunate enough to get the volume) was a fair range for the annual production to cover most makers...

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Ha! Well, here...

Report - Main-d'Or / Eiji Murata - Shoegazing.com

He has produced some of the world's finest shoes for over 12 years, he is highly praised by the bespoke shoemaking colleagues in Japan, and basically

shoegazing.com

"He only makes about 15 pairs a year"

I figured 12-24 (the upper end for this that outsource out work, and are fortunate enough to get the volume) was a fair range for the annual production to cover most makers...

Hehe well yeah Eiji is certainly an exception, and you have to include that he also make two fitting shoes (first advanced, second very advanced) on top of that, plus that he was a teacher one sometimes two days a week (though he does work seven days a week, so that sort of evens that out).

If one talk a freelance or in-house full time bottom maker, one pair a week is some sort of average I would say.

 

[daizawaguy]

Wrote a report about Yuigo Hayano of Bespoke Shoe Works, and what are among the best classic "British" bespoke shoes you can get today - just made in Tokyo. Read it and see loads of more photos here, below a few pics.

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One of the best experiences in communication and fitting I have had with the Japanese bespoke shoemakers. Hats off to Hayano-san.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

One of the best experiences in communication and fitting I have had with the Japanese bespoke shoemakers. Hats off to Hayano-san.
View attachment 1633907 View attachment 1633908 View attachment 1633909 View attachment 1633911

Cool pattern. Very Subtle differences from a traditional Shortwing. Swan neck, gimping along the topline..top notch. ?
I prefer these over the YF Shortwing (sorry Jesper I think you have one). Of course with these sorts of things, opinions will vary.

What was the completion time (fitting to delivery)?

 

[bengal-stripe]

The going rate I had heard was $350 or so - guess that includes material charges (maybe not), which is not huge for the amount of time it takes to hand welt and hand stitch a sole!

Outworkers get paid considerably more than USD350 = GBP 250 here in the UK. Traditionally they were paid very badly, as shoemakers were plentiful, but those times have gone. The prices paid are based on John Lobb's annually revised list which states how much the company does pay for 'basic making' and how much for various extras. Until a few years ago every company paid the amounts listed and no a penny more. This changed when a young shoemaker sat himself up in business and and promised the people he was interested to work with to pay a certain sum or a certain percentage over the Lobb list. Other firms were forced to follow (grudgingly) so the really good outworkers who are in demand can get somewhat more paid.

An outworker does not supply the materials. He get's last, uppers and the leathers for the bottom work delivered, the only things he supplies are nails, glue and thread. He works the bottoms and applies the finish to the soles and their edges, but does not polish the uppers. The shoes go back to the firm with the lasts still in place. There the shoes are polished, the lasts get pulled and a 'sock' (insole liner) is glued in place.

Up to the 1980s most outworkers lived in London or nearby. Saturday mornings the took their work to the firms, got paid in cash and were given new jobs. All this has changed: outworkers can live anywhere, they get their work through couriers and their payment by bank transfers. Outworkers living anywhere in the world is a very recent thing. Although I do not know their payments, I cannot believe they are paid less than English colleagues .

If one talk a freelance or in-house full time bottom maker, one pair a week is some sort of average I would say.

As I said they are reasonably well paid these days, I don't think anyone could make a decent living with one pair a week. A skilled bottom maker makes between two and three pairs per week. One pair a week might be right if you include drying times etc. but he will always work on more than one pair at a given time. (That assumes normal times, at present the whole industry is on it's knees and work for everyone has almost totally dried-up.)

 

[j ingevaldsson]

As I said they are reasonably well paid these days, I don't think anyone could make a decent living with one pair a week. A skilled bottom maker makes between two and three pairs per week. One pair a week might be right if you include drying times etc. but he will always work on more than one pair at a given time. (That assumes normal times, at present the whole industry is on it's knees and work for everyone has almost totally dried-up.)

That production is for freelance bottom makers in the UK, sure, but if you look at other groups like bottom workers in France, in-house bottom workers in smaller firms (where also a number of other small tasks come along), bottom workers in Japan (who in general spend much more time on pairs, too much time one could argue, one of the problems with why they make so little money. As I understand it when rather experienced Japanese makers head to the UK to work for a firm it's a shock with the production amount expected) etc, some sort of "global average" would be lower.

Interesting with the young shoemaker pushing pay! Hadn't heard about that.

 

[lemmywinks]

Which of the Japanese shoemakers make loafers?

 

[clee1982]

All of them…?

 

[thesartorialistbanker]

For example, Yohei Fukuda makes loafers.

 

[daizawaguy]

My experience is, and I have asked 5 makers, is that all are up for the challenge, but would not recommend this as a first shoe. In fact, I think very few (with the exception of ANN) would take on the risk as a first pair - the issues being that the fit is unforgiving whereas with an Oxford you have a higher front and the laces can be adjusted. I saw a video recently of Kirby Allison receiving a pair from a UK maker - it seems very large on the video though he does not mention this in the comments - but I suspect that may more adjustments and fittings are necessary than an Oxford. The chap at the Armory too has a video on this YF`s - he seems to be slipping in them, but here again no comments from him on fit. Further, once you have an oxford last, another has to be built fo a slip-on, so you really have to have a good relationship with the maker (ie. multiple orders) before that project really begins...just my 2c worth...

 

[American_Psycho11]

Saying nothing of the quality/materials/etc. are these bespoke shoes overpriced? When I can get a very well made shoe RTW or even MTM for 500-1000 depending on brand, is spending 4000 for a pair from Yohei Fukuda or Tye Shoemaker, etc. worth it?

 

[JohnMRobie]

Saying nothing of the quality/materials/etc. are these bespoke shoes overpriced?

Why would you disregard quality and materials when determining whether something is worth it’s price?

Are they over priced? No.

Are they worth it to you is a more personal decision in whether you personally value the quality, materials, fit and the makers work and expertise.

When I can get a very well made shoe RTW or even MTM for 500-1000 depending on brand, is spending 4000 for a pair from Yohei Fukuda or Tye Shoemaker, etc. worth it?

A MTM shoe that is hand lasted and hand welted with trial shoes is mostly going to start somewhere over 1k with most being up in the 1500-2000 range not near 500.