Earth 2 Denon: Umm, there's world recession in progress ?!

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by A Y

Better is not more expensive. Often in the audio world, more expensive is worse. For example, using Blackgate caps to bypass power supplies is pretty dumb and makes the circuit perform worse.
This has not been my experience. My friends and I have done several mods where use of better, more expensive parts has improved sound such as the MP filter in the Ayre, teflon capacitors in preamps and amps, silver wire in R2R decks, better cartridges on turntables, and better clocking on CD players. As well we have noticed better designed DACs like the Sabre and CS 4398 tend to be more expensive yet sound better. As well bigger and better regulated power supplies are pricey but make a nice sound contribution. No doubt there is a decent profit margin in audio, but you often get what you pay for in my experience, at least up to the $20K point where my experience starts to get thinner unless you count hifi shows.

 

[unjung]

I don't see why every one of these manufacturers isn't doing double-blind studies on every piece of equipment they produce. That would kill these arguments off completely.

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by unjung

I don't see why every one of these manufacturers isn't doing double-blind studies on every piece of equipment they produce. That would kill these arguments off completely.

Most do blind subjective testing. Harman's brands like Revel and Levinson do this. Same for Audio Research, Wilson, and Conrad-Johnson.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

This has not been my experience. My friends and I have done several mods where use of better, more expensive parts has improved sound such as the MP filter in the Ayre, teflon capacitors in preamps and amps, silver wire in R2R decks, better cartridges on turntables, and better clocking on CD players. As well we have noticed better designed DACs like the Sabre and CS 4398 tend to be more expensive yet sound better. As well bigger and better regulated power supplies are pricey but make a nice sound contribution.

Sounding different is not the same as sounding better. Without knowing the specific design of a circuit, I'm incredulous that random replacement of parts (many of which are inferior in a specific function, like those Blackgates) can deterministically improve sound quality. You may as well start replacing random parts in your car and expect to get better mileage or speed. In both cases, if there is actually an improvement, the design is probably substandard to begin with, which is unfortunately common in audio, even for $20K preamps.

more expensive parts has improved sound such as the MP filter in the Ayre

If you know as much about the Ayre's minimum phase filter as you would like your previous post to imply, you would know that this sentence is a non sequitur.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Most do blind subjective testing. Harman's brands like Revel and Levinson do this. Same for Audio Research, Wilson, and Conrad-Johnson.

Don't know about AR or C-J, but Wilson in no way does any kind of blind testing with the rigor and discipline done by Harman's speaker people. They are not even operating on the same planet.

--Andre

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by A Y

Sounding different is not the same as sounding better. Without knowing the specific design of a circuit, I'm incredulous that random replacement of parts (many of which are inferior in a specific function, like those Blackgates) can deterministically improve sound quality. You may as well start replacing random parts in your car and expect to get better mileage or speed. In both cases, if there is actually an improvement, the design is probably substandard to begin with, which is unfortunately common in audio, even for $20K preamps. If you know as much about the Ayre's minimum phase filter as you would like your previous post to imply, you would know that this sentence is a non sequitur. Don't know about AR or C-J, but Wilson in no way does any kind of blind testing with the rigor and discipline done by Harman's speaker people. They are not even operating on the same planet. --Andre
I guess we have an honest disagreement Andre. In my experience certains mods work quite well in audio. My post did not say anything about "random" replacement of parts but those that make sense for the circuit design and have measurably better performance like the newer DACs and teflon caps. Peter McGrath who works at Wilson told me about the blind testing so I'm going with that. There have been several stories about Audio Research's testing. Not sure I follow your MP reference but here is Ayre's white paper: http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf Are you referencing that these are implemented with FPGA programming?

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

IMy post did not say anything about "random" replacement of parts but those that make sense for the circuit design and have measurably better performance like the newer DACs and teflon caps.

It did not, but if you read the reasoning for many of these mods, they are pretty much random. DAC performance is at a point now where their implementation (board layout and power supply design as it relates to the specific layout) dominates their performance. Swapping parts is not going to do much good if you don't also redesign the PCB layout.

Looking at where Telfon caps have been used, I don't think they offer measurably better performance in situ, and are often worse.

Peter McGrath who works at Wilson told me about the blind testing so I'm going with that. There have been several stories about Audio Research's testing.

They may do blind testing, but I guarantee you that they do not have the ability to do as complete and rigorous testing as the Harman people. No one else in the speaker industry does as extensive testing as they do. See Sean Olive's blog for what the Harman people do.

Not sure I follow your MP reference but here is Ayre's white paper: http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf

Are you referencing that these are implemented with FPGA programming?

I'm referring to the fact that MP filters have nothing to do with using better and more expensive parts. It is a design feature, not a different kind of part that's more expensive but with equivalent functionality (eg. silver wire as opposed to copper wire).

--Andre

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by A Y

They may do blind testing, but I guarantee you that they do not have the ability to do as complete and rigorous testing as the Harman people. No one else in the speaker industry does as extensive testing as they do. See Sean Olive's blog for what the Harman people do.

So your argument is that Harman does better blind testing? I don't think that would be easy to prove or disprove. The poster wondered if any blind testing was done and we answered with some examples.

 

[Christofuh]

Optional B&O system in Audi and Naim in Bentley both retail north of $6K. Yet neither will be worth more than jackshit come trade-in time. Go figure

BTW, only zee German-owned company could come up with $200K vehicle that still has option list

 

[dkzzzz]

A few months back I spoke to the owner and head designer of NA well known audio equipment company. I will not mention his name.

He told me in a few words that DACs are for morons and DACs don't improve the sound quality, the only reason they keep making them becasue morons keep asking for them.

 

[rdawson808]

Originally Posted by sonick

Forget Denon, tell that to Roman Abramovich: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...submarine.html

That article makes him sound like some kind of 007 villain. The yacht has a missile defense system and a mini sub that can serve as an "escape pod." Plus he's Russian. Genius!

b

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

A few months back I spoke to the owner and head designer of NA well known audio equipment company. I will not mention his name. He told me in a few words that DACs are for morons and DACs don't improve the sound quality, the only reason they keep making them becasue morons keep asking for them.
He doesn't know what he is talking about as DACs often improve the sound quality. It's like anything digital. The chips keep getting better so if you have an outdated chip in your CD player then a new good quality DAC will definitely improve the sound quality.

 

[Sprezzatura2010]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Most people use the Ayre for music playback. It's hard to convince you of the value of high end electronics unless you are familiar with the improvement in sound they offer. It's just like anything else like a fine wine or a Rubinacci suit. The better stuff is more time consuming to make and involves more expensive parts.
Sometimes, sometimes not.

Originally Posted by A Y

Better things take longer to design, and sometimes take longer to make. But electronics generally all take the same amount of time to make. Audio design for the most part lacks talent and skill, not money.
And that talent and skill is, unfortunately, far more likely to be lacking at the boutique end than at major industrial audio companies (Harman, DRM, etc.)

Originally Posted by unjung

I don't see why every one of these manufacturers isn't doing double-blind studies on every piece of equipment they produce. That would kill these arguments off completely.
Actually, it would really just kill off the overpriced audio electronics market completely. (To say nothing of wires, etc.) Well, some of the advanced room correction processors would stay, maybe some of the high-design stuff, and maybe McIntosh just because they have this aura about them. But this moronic fiction of one "sounding better" from another would cease.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Most do blind subjective testing. Harman's brands like Revel and Levinson do this.
There you go again, not having the intellectual depth or rigor to understand the difference between a mechanical/acoustic system (speakers, a la Revel) and simple electronics box (Levinson, Blu-Ray players generally).

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

A few months back I spoke to the owner and head designer of NA well known audio equipment company. I will not mention his name. He told me in a few words that DACs are for morons and DACs don't improve the sound quality, the only reason they keep making them becasue morons keep asking for them.
Indeed, there is money to be made on the insecure, status-conscious deaf, such as AF.

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by Sprezzatura2010

There you go again, not having the intellectual depth or rigor to understand the difference between a mechanical/acoustic system (speakers, a la Revel) and simple electronics box (Levinson, Blu-Ray players generally).

**** off Gladwell, I'm well aware of the difference. Levinson tests their branded drivers (from Revel) for the Lexus systems.

 

[JetBlast]

Christ here we go with the audiophile bitching again.

I'll be right back, need to run to the grocery store and get some styrofoam cups.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Levinson tests their branded drivers (from Revel) for the Lexus systems.

LOLwut? ML car audio systems pick from the Harman parts bin, and aren't any more special than any other Harman car audio brand. The same people work on all of their systems. The ML label is used in the same way that some restaurants brag about the Hershey's chocolate in their ice cream sundaes.

Think about it for a second: how much money could they actually put into a c. $2K audio option in a sub-$40K car? ML preamps alone, never mind speakers, amps, CD player, radio, etc. go for well over $2000.

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

So your argument is that Harman does better blind testing? I don't think that would be easy to prove or disprove. The poster wondered if any blind testing was done and we answered with some examples.

There is good testing, and bad testing. I suppose it would be possible that Wilson does as extensive of blind testing as Harman, but this has never been borne out by either photo tours of their factory done in several magazines and websites, nor by the actual quality of their speakers.

Harman's blind testing of speakers is very special, and unique to the speaker industry --- no one else does it as well or as rigorously, and what they do is pretty much incomparable. Have you been to Sean Olive's blog to see what they actually do?

--Andre