Bowler hat with Tux... Yey or Nay?

[LabelKing]

I've noticed Vienna has an inordinate amount of shops selling top hats around the Opera House.

 

[j]

Originally Posted by Lucky Strike

OK, I'll be an ass: A top (cylinder) hat of any type should only be worn with a tailcoat, either white tie or a morning coat. Those are the Rules, as Manton states. If following sartorial tradition is of any consideration (and it doesn't have to be, of course), wearing a top hat with blackt tie is entirely wrong. IMO, it also looks odd and unbalanced.
What about with a red jacket, yellow shirt, black spotted cravat, white gloves and monocle?

 

[Lucky Strike]

Originally Posted by j

What about with a red jacket, yellow shirt, black spotted cravat, white gloves and monocle?
Well, as long as it's a tailcoat...

 

[Nantucket Red]

I say wear a Homburg.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by Lucky Strike

A top (cylinder) hat of any type should only be worn with a tailcoat, either white tie or a morning coat. Those are the Rules

If following sartorial tradition is of any consideration (and it doesn't have to be, of course), wearing a top hat with blackt tie is entirely wrong. IMO, it also looks odd and unbalanced.

This was published in 1902 in a journal called Fashion which at the time in England was considered the last word in men's dress. Black tie is what they call "informal dinner clothes":

 

[Lucky Strike]

Originally Posted by Sator

This was published in 1902 in a journal called Fashion which at the time in England was considered the last word in men's dress. Black tie is what they call "informal dinner clothes"
Mmm, OK, but it's still looks odd, I think. I've heard the rule about top hats with tailcoats only described as a categorical imperative, more or less.

 

[Gladhatter]

This was published in 1902 in a journal called Fashion which at the time in England was considered the last word in men's dress. Black tie is what they call "informal dinner clothes":

Thank you for the dress chart. I am of the understanding that Davy Crockett's true hat was not a coonskin at all but a cylinder hat. I understand that in certain periods these hats were quite casual.

We recently purchased the old Danbury hat works out and in that collection was a top hat of natural undyed beaver. It was anything but formal and actually had some vent eyelets in it but I have since learned these too was common in some toppers. This hat must have been passed down from the late 1700's I would think and surely was not part of the original hat shop. I have only seen one other like it and it was dated in the 1700's with documentation.

 

[Topper]

Toppers go with tails,

As previoulsy mentioned for correct "Style" it is pleasing to the eye the dress doen not over-balance, the height of the Topper matched the length of a tailcoat.

As to Black Tie, this is evening dinner jacket, and would entirely depend on the venue and the event. ( note one does not have a dinner suit, or a morning suit, merely Dinner Jacket, and Morning Tailcoat)

Is the event temperate eg Egypt, Queensland, Hot Florida, e.t.c. where by a White Dinner jacket woud be permissible, or otherwise by default a Black Dinner jacket.

If the Event is Opera, Embassy ball, Royal event, then technically it should be white tie, and hence would have Top hat.

If it is not White tie, and thus black tie then a Homburg, or a "Formal" Bowler ( higher crown, with flater top, not so rounded - Think Curchill or Odd-Job from the Bond movies!

) would be considered ok. But not a normal domed Bowler /Derby hat.

Pip Pip
Doug

p.s. Even so, one would only wear the hatr until you arrived with ones overcoat or cape, the take it on in the foyer. Would be very bad etiquette to wear it further inside.

 

[LA Guy]

Interesting little chart. However, iirc, "Fashion" was in 1902 what "GQ" is today, and people here ***** and moan about GQ's, um, "progressive" views about men's dress. There are, in the chart, any number of things that are unconventional. For example, real sticklers would contend that wing collars are not suitable with an informal dinner jacket.

I personally enjoy playing with proportions, wearing a very fitted suit with a higher collar and a thick tie with a think knot, for example.

 

[RJman]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

I personally enjoy playing with proportions, wearing a very fitted suit with a higher collar and a thick tie with a think knot, for example.
Karl? Is that you?

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by RJman

Karl? Is that you?

Yes, but with a finger on your personal Spamminate button, due to a veelly intelesting little glitch in that feature as implemented in StyleFORVM

 

[Topper]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

For example, real sticklers would contend that wing collars are not suitable with an informal dinner jacket.

I had that exact discussion with another chap last the other night. He was adament that the wing collar went only with white tie.... Not dinner Jacket for black tie - whilst i concur that sounds plausable, it does not mean that one must wear a wing exclusively with white tie ( also with morning dress and ascot cravat), One could also wear an Imperial high collar with White tie - One which has no wing or fold down.

Really fashions is dependant on Era, over a number of years within an Era a tradition may occur.... Protocol is often formed from people conforming to a tradition, to become convention. Thus whn people ask me about Dress codes what people really want to know is what is "Conventional" - Not being pompas a55

mnerely informing of what 'was' done...

The thing is there are many traditions, and who to say which is more correct that another, though some traditions are have been around longer than others. Some when it the out, the back in to fashion!

One interesting new term is now HBT "Hollywood Black Tie"

where by people dress down, in Dark Suits, often no ties and dark shirts with double cuffs, without cufflinks! - cuffs folded outside the jacket sleve e.t.c. These people who do not follow convention. - Is this Style? or merely self-centred rich people wishing to show off.

Whilst I would put HBT into the general backet of 'fashion' - personally I would not consider it to be 'stylish'.

The advantage of traditional black tie, was not to show off, but to show others around you how much you respect them being there. Not to turning up scruffy. Also it would put all chaps on the same playing field. You could be rich or just the 'average Joe' but when everyone conformed to the same dress code, it was then just left to personality and actions to differentated everyone.

 

[Teacher]

Well put, Topper...and welcome to the forum (I may be a little late on that one).

I would prefer no hat with black tie; then again, I'm not a hat guy anyway. If one were to wear a hat, I'd go with some of the others here and recommend the homburg. I don't think a bowler would be all that bad, but a homburg would probably work better. My own sartorial sense tells me that toppers are only for tailcoats or frock coats due to vertical balance issues: the length of the skirt/tails balances out the height of the topper, whereas this is not the case with a tuxedo.

 

[Topper]

Hi Thanks for the welcome!

For those who are wondering what I mean by a "formal bowler" there is a good picture of the great man himself Churchill wearing one here:

Woud consider it to be more permissible than the standard bowler to wear even if have black tie underneath - But once again only when outside travelling to an event with overcoat/cape.

 

[JLibourel]

Stateside, the bowler is strictly costume--for mimes, SASS, if you are a re-enactor in "Old West Days"--something like that.

I would concur in the recommendation of a Homburg. I am pretty sure that a black or dark grey fedora is also acceptable with black tie, per vintatge Emily Post, Amy Vanderbilt or both.