Archibald London Hand Welted Shoes - preorder issues, discussion,and resolution.

[boot_owl]

Yeah, but attached to that above you see in the pictures is the midsole, right, and then to this the outsole is stitched. As I mentioned above, the midsole is the key.

I see your point - the midsole essentially serves as a proxy for the insole. But as I said - once you cement on a rubber outsole and the original outsole is now a midsole - presto you have stitchdown!

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I see your point - the midsole essentially serves as a proxy for the insole. But as I said - once you cement on a rubber outsole and the original outsole is now a midsole - presto you have stitchdown!

Hehe yeah sure, maybe they can just add rubber topys and re-launch these faulty shoes as "city stitchdown construction" or something ?

 

[clee1982]

I had you more like the AM type

I like dress shoes, but for country shoes/boots I really like CJ, I have been searching a CJ Pembroke/Alden LWB/CJ Ashdown handwelt equivalent.

There are handwelt option, but some are too sleek, some are just "too itaian" not english country

 

[clee1982]

I still don't understand why they describe their sneakers as Goodyear welted. It seems like the same Margom cup construction as CPs and some boat shoes.

you can ask them, I have seen the video, basically tells you not enough info to say anything, think the last thing is they're checking with the maker.

 

[too_poor_for_this]

re : https://www.styleforum.net/threads/...-welted-dress-shoes-gmto.654801/post-10278901

Came here from a post on reddit and oh my. I would've had opinions on the less than gracious responses in real time, but looking back on it after reading through this thread... wew lad. i feel like i just got done watching trash TV.


> That is why I am not a quack and you are one.


hahahhahah oh fade me that's a top tier moment in my SF canon. do things get testy that fast around here or have i just been casually dropping in on the nice places?

 

[deliku]

I see your point - the midsole essentially serves as a proxy for the insole. But as I said - once you cement on a rubber outsole and the original outsole is now a midsole - presto you have stitchdown!

I find this interesting. If I’m understanding correctly, you’re basically saying these AoL shoes are one step away from being stitchdown constructed dress shoes without nails because the uppers are turned outwards.

By the same token though, if the uppers had been turned inwards they would be no different than typical cement constructed shoes with a faux welt like so:

Interesting to think about but probably pointless in the end. The whole point of any stitched construction is to allow for ease of resoling and the bottom line is these AoL shoes would not be easy to resole since the outsole is cemented to the uppers.

 

[clee1982]

think we're just over analyze, this is hand glued...

 

[boot_owl]

I find this interesting. If I’m understanding correctly, you’re basically saying these AoL shoes are one step away from being stitchdown constructed dress shoes without nails because the uppers are turned outwards.

By the same token though, if the uppers had been turned inwards they would be no different than typical cement constructed shoes with a faux welt like so:
View attachment 1574387

Interesting to think about but probably pointless in the end. The whole point of any stitched construction is to allow for ease of resoling and the bottom line is these AoL shoes would not be easy to resole since the outsole is cemented to the uppers.

the important part about the uppers being turned outwards is that it is then stitched to the outsole, which makes it similar to stitchdown. It isn’t super important where the nails begin either in making it distinct from stitchdown. The only real variations are the lack of midsole and the fake welt on top of the turned out upper, which can help protect the upper from damage.

As far as resoling goes, it’s identical to doing a full stitchdown resole (ie removing midsole too, as well as cork. Yes, resoling a construction with turned out upper is more difficult and more risky than resoling on a welt, but that’s not unique to Archibalds construction.

To be clear, I think that this construction is inferior to handwelt and that the factory has behaved terribly with its deception. I’ve also never been particularly interested in the handwelted Archibald product. If it seems like I’m defending them a lot, I would say that I’m more trying to correct the many inaccuracies being perpetuated here. It is not a cemented construction, because the upper is stitched to the sole. It doesn’t matter if the upper is also cemented to the sole, so long as it is stitched it is a stitched construction.
I’m pretty sure this is identical to Zeb’s sandwich veldtschoen/lotus veldtschoen.

 

[clee1982]

the important part about the uppers being turned outwards is that it is then stitched to the outsole, which makes it similar to stitchdown. It isn’t super important where the nails begin either in making it distinct from stitchdown. The only real variations are the lack of midsole and the fake welt on top of the turned out upper, which can help protect the upper from damage.

As far as resoling goes, it’s identical to doing a full stitchdown resole (ie removing midsole too, as well as cork. Yes, resoling a construction with turned out upper is more difficult and more risky than resoling on a welt, but that’s not unique to Archibalds construction.

To be clear, I think that this construction is inferior to handwelt and that the factory has behaved terribly with its deception. I’ve also never been particularly interested in the handwelted Archibald product. If it seems like I’m defending them a lot, I would say that I’m more trying to correct the many inaccuracies being perpetuated here. It is not a cemented construction, because the upper is stitched to the sole. It doesn’t matter if the upper is also cemented to the sole, so long as it is stitched it is a stitched construction.
I’m pretty sure this is identical to Zeb’s sandwich veldtschoen/lotus veldtschoen.

does it matter if it's glue hold things together?

 

[boot_owl]

does it matter if it's glue hold things together?

I mean in GYW the upper and welt are attached to the insole by glue too? Glue is used everywhere in footwear, it is really a key material whether it be handwelted bespoke or a pair of Nikes. It’s not inferior on its own, it’s only inferior when it’s the sole source of connection IMO.

 

[clee1982]

Fair point, but I would think there is a degree of difference. I didn't de construct this shoe, but would your opinion be the same if the rapid stich is removed and the glue still held everything together "just fine" (or that's not possible?)

 

[boot_owl]

Fair point, but I would think there is a degree of difference. I didn't de construct this shoe, but would your opinion be the same if the rapid stich is removed and the glue still held everything together "just fine" (or that's not possible?)

I don’t think it would stay attached long if the stitching was removed and the sole was only attached to the upper by glue at the turned out points. Maybe if the whole upper was turned in and then cemented (with a larger surface to apply glue) to the sole.
That said, remove the stitches and yes I would call it cemented construction.

 

[clee1982]

or I guess another scenario if I have 100% glued shoe but the upper was turned outwards (but without the rapid), then if I after fact add the rapid is the shoe significantly improved structurally (I'm sure it's improved because stich, how much I have no idea, you'd know better)?

edit: just saw your post, so I guess upper turn outwards for glue just not really possible (not enough surface area?)

 

[JohnMRobie]

I don’t think it would stay attached long if the stitching was removed and the sole was only attached to the upper by glue at the turned out points. Maybe if the whole upper was turned in and then cemented (with a larger surface to apply glue) to the sole.
That said, remove the stitches and yes I would call it cemented construction.

only the actual upper was turned out - the fabric liner and interior liner were turned in (and all 3 layers were glued to each other) and then glued to the insole which was glued in its entirety to the sole.

 

[boot_owl]

or I guess another scenario if I have 100% glued shoe but the upper was turned outwards (but without the rapid), then if I after fact add the rapid is the shoe significantly improved structurally (I'm sure it's improved because stich, how much I have no idea, you'd know better)?

Depends on the type of glue and the definition of improvement. Some glues are meant to be temporary And thus would not be structurally sound without stitching (I use these to assemble things like wallets before stitching). If it is a properly cemented shoe like say the EG Portland, the stitching doesn’t really add much more structural improvement but it would technically make it a stitched construction still