any public defenders here?

[magogian12345]

I should just add that this market is very brutal right now. Of course, by the time you graduate, it is a fair assumption that the market will have improved.

Regarding current market conditions, my law firm is essentially hiring only Yale/Harvard with a few UofC and NW grads (if they are top of their class). It wasn't nearly that hard when I was hired.

 

[magogian12345]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

certainly. but isn't everything in this thread...kind of circumstantial?

it's possible i'll flunk out of college and not even go to law school, right?

for the purpose of my question, i guess i was asking "if someone went to tulane and did well..." etc.

whether i can do that or not is a different question. one i will have to wait to answer.

Fair enough. But it leads me to something I was going to mention earlier (but forgot). One important consideration is the amount of debt you will need to take on. For example, if a lower-ranked school offers you significantly more money than Tulane, then you should seriously consider the lower-ranked school.

 

[AR_Six]

What I have learned in this thread: being a "real lawyer" means approximating, as closely as possible, television shows about lawyers.

 

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by JD_May

What I have learned in this thread: being a "real lawyer" means approximating, as closely as possible, television shows about lawyers.

easy slippery slope guy.

if you want a clearer definition, here is what i mean:

i want to do lawyer work, in the truest sense of the term. i want to talk with clients, file lawsuits, spend time in court, in ADDITION to the mundane work that comes with the job.

although i wish i could be alan shore -- i know that boston legal is just a tv show. i'm not blurring any lines here.

i'm simply saying that i don't want a biglaw job where i do 15 hours of grunt work per day. that's not being a lawyer, in my opinion.

i have realistic expectations of the type of lifestyle a lawyer leads.

 

[KObalto]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Other PDs find great satisfaction in what they do and wouldn't trade it for all the money a firm could offer. But your heart has to be in it. The workload can be enormous, and while that means a lot of courtroom experience, it can also mean that you don't get to spend much time playing Perry Mason. It becomes a matter of getting the best outcome with the time and resources available.

Now and then as a PD you'll come across a client who really needs your help, a decent person whose life rests in your hands, and if you find satisfaction in that, it can make for a fulfilling career. But I wouldn't take up public defense unless you really feel it's your calling. If you care about the law on a more abstract level, you might be happier doing something more lucrative and less emotionally taxing.

QFT.

 

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

i want to do lawyer work, in the truest sense of the term. i want to talk with clients, file lawsuits, spend time in court, in ADDITION to the mundane work that comes with the job.
That's my point. Your conception of what "lawyer work in the truest sense of the term" means appears to be based on television shows. Particularly in the early part of your career, lawyer work will basically be research, document discovery, filings and all that other "mundane" stuff that you don't think is "real" because you have no real frame of reference for what the practice of law is like. I'm not saying you're wrong, you'll do a lot more of that hands on stuff if you take this path, but forming opinions of what a career in a particular field is going to look like before you even get into law school is a bit naive. I had no idea I'd end up working in the department I am in coming out of school, and for all I know I'll be in a totally different field in a couple of years. Very few people end up where they expected when they started out.

 

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by JD_May

That's my point. Your conception of what "lawyer work in the truest sense of the term" means appears to be based on television shows. Particularly in the early part of your career, lawyer work will basically be research, document discovery, filings and all that other "mundane" stuff that you don't think is "real" because you have no real frame of reference for what the practice of law is like. I'm not saying you're wrong, you'll do a lot more of that hands on stuff if you take this path, but forming opinions of what a career in a particular field is going to look like before you even get into law school is a bit naive. I had no idea I'd end up working in the department I am in coming out of school, and for all I know I'll be in a totally different field in a couple of years. Very few people end up where they expected when they started out.
on the contrary, my frame of reference is based on a PD who does savage **** (court appearances, negotiating deals, meeting clients) on a day-to-day basis and a guy who's hung his own shingle and does a little bit of everything. i understand that part of being a lawyer is grunt work. i think the disconnect here is that you think that i don't want any part of that. that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying i don't want that to be the whole part. i expect mundane tasks. i don't intend on doing them exclusively. we both agree that i'll do less mundane **** if i take this path. but it'll still be there. i know that.

 

[magogian12345]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

i'm simply saying that i don't want a biglaw job where i do 15 hours of grunt work per day. that's not being a lawyer, in my opinion.

i have realistic expectations of the type of lifestyle a lawyer leads.

So, your "realistic expectations" of what a lawyer is excludes what most lawyers do. Most curious. Not to be an ass, but you need a reality check.

 

[airportlobby]

Certainly a Tulane degree is well-regarded, and I imagine especially so in New Orleans, where I think there is probably a big Tulane law network. But it's not a golden ticket and doesn't have a lot of cache outside Louisiana. SEven in Nola there are lots of great gigs, that you would be happy to get, that would be easier to get into with a t5 degree (I'm thinking of 5th Circuit and fed dist. clerkships, US Attorney's office, federal public defenders, top regional firms, in house positions).

Also, because a Tulane degree isn't necessarily a slam dunk, a cost-benefit analysis has to be used. If LSU throws a lot of money at you and Tulane wants you to foot the whole bill, LSU is probably more attractive. You should also keep Texas in mind - it has a decent national reputation and can be quite cheap with the right scholarship package. Debt load can be crushing for new lawyers. I know LSU lawyers in Austin; they have jobs.

Also, if you think you would want to become a law professor at a decent law school, the chances of landing such a position if you didn't go to Yale, Harvard, Stanford or Chicago are pretty damn slim. Something to keep in mind if you think legal scholarship is something you would enjoy (god forbid).

You should call up the the Nola public defender's office and ask if you can volunteer. Although the nola criminal justice system may be a bit of an anomaly (I think the felony conviction rate is one of the lowest in the country), it would give you a real sense of whether or not you like work and the culture.

I hope my previous messages didn't come across as negative about public defender's offices. It can be great work, and, of course, vitally important. It's just that getting there requires some serious sacrifices and it's good to go in with your eyes open, and leave as many options open as possible.

 

[jagmqt]

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

i want to be a real lawyer. i want to be in court.

You've said you want to be a "real lawyer" twice...what makes you think PD's are "real lawyers" ?

Trying to convince 12 people that wern't smart enough to get out of jury duty that some scumbag is only half guilty never seemed like "real lawyering" to me. It's showmanship in my opinion, not law.

I've alwasy considered the "real lawyers" to be those in appellate practice--arguing details of law against an attorney just as prepared. You make an effort to present your argument in front of 3+ judges who are experts in analysis, and they have total control over the discussion (despite what you've prepared).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by the phrase, but I see a "real lawyer" as one that argues the law, not the facts.

jag

 

[airportlobby]

Originally Posted by jagmqt

You've said you want to be a "real lawyer"
...

I've alwasy considered the "real lawyers" to be those in appellate practice--arguing details of law against an attorney just as prepared
jag

I consider this to be the "law review" version of the law - only we lawyers who graduated at the top of top schools understand the law!

Nevermind the fact that pd offices have appellate sections, but as an appellate lawyer, I consider most of the heavy lifting (and therefore substantial lawyering) to be done at trial. Appellate is about cleaning up messes. Appeals are so bound by the standard of review that there is often a feeling of predestination in the practice. And while juries may be morons, appellate judges are often ideologues. I'm convinced a good lawyer can make a bigger difference at trial, and not just with showmanship, but also with knowledge, deft pleading practice, etc.

 

[jagmqt]

Originally Posted by airportlobby

I consider this to be the "law review" version of the law - only we lawyers who graduated at the top of top schools understand the law!
LOL! I think it's funny you put things this way. I despised those students on law review--I figured that's what I'd have a secretary for. And I was no where near the top of my class.

Nevermind the fact that pd offices have appellate sections, but as an appellate lawyer, I consider most of the heavy lifting (and therefore substantial lawyering) to be done at trial. Appellate is about cleaning up messes. Appeals are so bound by the standard of review that there is often a feeling of predestination in the practice. And while juries may be morons, appellate judges are often ideologues. I'm convinced a good lawyer can make a bigger difference at trial, and not just with showmanship, but also with knowledge, deft pleading practice, etc.

I've done criminal appeals (on behalf of the state) and can see your point. I know we're just exchanging opinions here, but I really think the interaction with the appellate panel makes those arguments a much greater challenge. At the trial level, I actually prefer the pretrial work to the trial itself...but I suppose that's because arguments on motions are closer to the appellate style.

jag

 

[Ataturk]

Appeals are almost never just about the law; they're about the application of the law to the facts established at trial. Too often on appeal you get a fucked up record, where the facts offered and accepted were like the proverbial square peg because the guys in the trial court didn't know what they were doing. Anybody who does a lot of appellate work will tell you that an ounce of good lawyering in the trial court is worth a pound on appeal, at least.

 

[airportlobby]

Yes, maybe so. Having only really worked in appellate practice, I'm only really knowledgeable about the frustrations of that practice (which tend to be the ineffectuality of my arguments in the face of deference to trial findings and cynicism about how judges' politics may determine a case). I imagine if I was in front of juries, I'd have more contempt for them! In fact, my one jury experience, sitting as a member of a venire, did not lend me a lot of confidence in their abilities....

 

[rjakapeanut]

Originally Posted by magogian12345

So, your "realistic expectations" of what a lawyer is excludes what most lawyers do. Most curious. Not to be an ass, but you need a reality check.

i don't feel the need to argue this point, because our dispute is solely based on our miscommunication.

suffice it to say that i'm open to all sorts of work as a lawyer -- except big law grunt work.

great advice in this thread. thanks guys.