A Sam (and David) Hober Tie Appreciation Thread

[venividivicibj]

Was thinking about the Dark Red Grenadine Grossa and the Burgundy Grenadine Grossa.

Are the colors too similar between the Dark red and the Burgundy? (I'm worried about getting both, but the tie being repetitive because I'm also getting the dark chocolate grenadine, and the burgundy also has brownish tones)

also, how long does it take for you guys to get your swatches (from order to reception)?

 

[archibaldleach]



Was thinking about the Dark Red Grenadine Grossa  and the Burgundy Grenadine Grossa.

Are the colors too similar between the Dark red and the Burgundy? (I'm worried about getting both, but the tie being repetitive because I'm also getting the dark chocolate grenadine, and the burgundy also has brownish tones)

The difference between the dark red grenadine grossa and burgundy is pretty clear when you look at the swatches. I'd say the same is true between the burgundy and dark chocolate. The burgundy has some brownish tones but is not going to be mistaken for one of the brown grenadines when you compare them.

I have the dark red grenadine (have had it for about 7 years now). It's dark enough but is not a true burgundy.

 

[tchoy]



Some thoughts on interlinings in general as applied to all ties:

No interlinings - some gentlemen prefer no interlinings and that is fine if you tend to be comfortable with ties that wrinkle more and have less structure and less weight.

Unlined ties also tend to take more skill to do correctly so some gentlemen enjoy unlined ties because of the skill that goes into making them.

Most of the time unlined ties do not work well for most so being conservative I do not suggest them.

Lined ties - Interlinings will almost always work best when they are wool. There are different grades of wool interlining. Lower grades are made in China and luxury interlining wool is made in Italy. Occasionally some interesting interlining wool will be woven in England but not much currently.

Interlining wool from Italy is woven in different weights and textures and different grades.

Sometimes you here the comment: "XYZ brand ties make great knots" Tie fabric and construction play a role as does the quality of the wool interlining but matching the right interlining to the tie fabric is a key point.

Normally a luxury Italian interlining wool will be a double layered fabric - is this heavy? Yes and no - yes it is heavier than a very light interlining but no it is not overly heavy instead it is what makes for a consistently great knot and a wrinkle resistant tie. Do not do this at home - you can normally wrinkle a tie with a good wool interlining into a ball and will bounce right back into shape - although the tip could be damaged.

Sometimes after trial and error some will find that they really like unlined ties or very lightly lined ties. But for unless you are willing to experiment I don't suggest unlined or lightly lined ties most of the time.

The same goes for untipped ties with rolled edges. They are a beautiful touch but only for those who love the look.

David

I've noticed the ties that I've from you have two layers of lining of different weight it's this the norm? Could you just use a single layer for a lighter weight tie?

 

[pinkpanther]

Today's Hober is a repeat and is the burnt orange diamond weave (3-fold construction). Happy Monday everyone!

 

[jayw]

Jayw,

Your questions are good ones for all tie makers - but a good point to keep in mind is that photos on the internet are not always what you see in real life.

For color and texture this is very true... for questions such as cutting on the bias etc this also holds true.

Also it is shall we say - interesting - reading clothing/fashion writers and what they say about clothing construction.
They typically have little experience actually making clothes then they start to write and then over time are assumed to be experts.

Once around 10 years ago I read an article about tie making in Naples from a popular magazine the production numbers were very far off. So much so that I doubted my own calculations and I asked a bespoke shirtmaker and he agreed that the numbers were simply not correct. The point being that the writers did not have real life experience and could not critically comment on what they were being told or observing.

Back to internet photos - only take them as guidance and please email the maker and ask questions. if you can't email the maker or a very knowledgable store owner - shop elsewhere.

"My question, based on your post, is what does it mean to cut on the bias?"

For silk weaving you will typically go with a 45 degree cut from the selvage edge of the fabric - this is what cutting on the bias is.

Why cut on the bias? The answer is that this will improve the drape of the tie.

"So to be completely clear, if the twill seems to lie at lets say 20 degrees, that has nothing to do with the silk being cut to the bias?"

100% correct (With a luxury tie maker)

"I mean this to be helpful, so based on what David said, the answer has to be yes. He always cuts on the bias at 45 degrees. That the twill looks in an unexpected direction is not inconsistent with his practice (which he means is the industry standard practice so therefore not a way to distinguish a great tie maker: all quality tie makers do it)."

100% Correct

"Perhaps the question you will ask now is: do all twill silk have the same directionality in a tie (i.e. relative to the bias)? Perhaps the answer is no?'

100% correct

Awesome post. Really appreciate it.

 

[TweedyProf]

Thanks David for those posts.

Ihave to admit to guessing on things like interlining
How folds affect drape etc. But I have only a vague idea. My sense on the bespoke process here is as David is emphasizing. Convey what your endpoint is, in consultation with the maker, while asking questions. Fortunately in David's case, you get patient and informative replies. But even bespoke processes are works in progress as you narrow in on an ideal. You might make adjustments from the first effort. The pleasure is in working with someone who is responsive and an expert/artist. Everything attests to working with David to be a pleasure and Iook forward to it.

I just need my swatches

 

[applky]

I don't know actually. All my silk ties get this kind of off-center dimple, but the 7-fold was quite extreme. But why my dimples looks like SpooPoker's even though we have different constructions is beyond me, even though it probably has to do with technique.

I'm guessing that Spoo has been tying ties for longer than I've lived, so I must be on the right track if you see a resemblance. So thank you for the compliment!

Your grenadine DFIH looks especially nice. You're right that it's all in the technique, though. Very nearly all of my ties are unlined seven-folds or lightly lined six-folds and I never get that off centered knot on either.

Spoo btw has said that he ties his ties like the Armoury's Mark Cho: http://vimeopro.com/thearmoury/tie-tying/video/50828730

Many useful videos in the above link, including some forum members.

 

[tchoy]



Without more details I can't give an accurate answer.

In general when a tie maker says two layers it means two layers of fabric that are put together by the tie maker.

Customers sometimes have a different meaning. They see an Italian double layered wool interlining and call it two layers.

The difference is subtle: the Italian wool that is put together at the mill is a single double layer of finished wool as opposed to two layers of wool which we put together. A photo may be helpful and if requested I can post a photo.

Now the above quote from tchoy mentioned two different weights put together - assuming a correct observation of two weights then the question becomes what two fabrics were used.

Keep in mind I am guessing without knowing which tie from which order.

Moving along with my detective work if the colors are booth a natural wool color then in theory you could leave out one layer but why?

Except for when requested to add more layers together we would only add layers to make the tie drape better or upon request.

If the two interlinings look very different then quite possibly one is wool and one is cotton. The wool is the main interlining and the cotton is added for bulk but not weight as it is light.

Keep in mind that the silk will typically provide more body to the tie than the wool which means that the interlining is not as important in terms of weight.

It is very much the job of a tie maker to carefully listen but often it works better to make a subjective request such as I like a heavy feeling or a light feeling or a classic normal tie.

Do you tell your tax accountant how to prepare your tax returns? Not normally and for a reason they do their work daily and are very good at what they do.

Note, you do tell a tax accountant your level of risk that you feel comfortable with and on occasion your accountant will give you some choices to make.

A tie maker will do the same and on occasion will refuse to make a tie or won't do it until many requests have been made.

David, thank you for taking your time to answer my post.

As a general rule I do like my ties on a lighter side with less bulk and I do request the lightest lining when I order ties from you.

Here a image of what I am talking about. It's one of my favourite tie from you. The lining is easily access because the tie is untipped I can easily seen two layers of interlining.

 

[kayjaybee]

White pin dots on dark purple

Great looking tie! I hope you're enjoying it. ;o) I especially miss this one, since David is out of this silk. ;o( Wear in good health!

 

[JohnnyGalt]

David, thank you for taking your time to answer my post.

As a general rule I do like my ties on a lighter side with less bulk and I do request the lightest lining when I order ties from you.

Here a image of what I am talking about. It's one of my favourite tie from you. The lining is easily access because the tie is untipped I can easily seen two layers of interlining.

Tchoy that is an awesome tie - do you recall which number print it is?

 

[PiCcolocV]

Tchoy that is an awesome tie - do you recall which number print it is?

+1

 

[pazzion]

Your grenadine DFIH looks especially nice. You're right that it's all in the technique, though. Very nearly all of my ties are unlined seven-folds or lightly lined six-folds and I never get that off centered knot on either.

Spoo btw has said that he ties his ties like the Armoury's Mark Cho: http://vimeopro.com/thearmoury/tie-tying/video/50828730

Many useful videos in the above link, including some forum members.

Thank you. And yes. It all comes more naturally the more ties you tie (which, of course, is pretty obvious. But people seem to think it's some kind of material sport, where you need an expensive tie to get a good dimple. Sure, it matters up to a point but then it's all about the fingerspitzengefühl).

Btw, thanks for the link. Lots of fun there!

 

[Evolve]



Thank you. And yes. It all comes more naturally the more ties you tie (which, of course, is pretty obvious. But people seem to think it's some kind of material sport, where you need an expensive tie to get a good dimple. Sure, it matters up to a point but then it's all about the fingerspitzengefühl).

Btw, thanks for the link. Lots of fun there!

+1. I love my Hobers and they make great dimples, but so did my $15 Tie Bar ties I was buying in college. It's mainly about being able to tie it well, which isn't really that difficult.

 

[pinkpanther]

Today's Hober is a repeat and is the English dot silk #21 (3-fold construction).

 

[tchoy]



tchoy,

From the photo the white interlining is cotton which will typically add no noticeable weight.

The other interlining is wool and I can't say from the photo the exact weight.

We would have responded to a request for the lightest interlining with the lightest that works well for that fabric.

We might have a slightly lighter fabric but if we don't think it would work we are reluctant to use it. The reason is that over time I have noticed that 90%+ of the time we do know what is best with interlinings.

Now for those who want a change they can request anything and there will be some back and forth and changes gradually made if possible.

Thanks David for enlightening us once again with your expertise on this forum.