18 East

[bry2000]

Are those the only two choices of garments in the market?

 

[Newcomer]

I am not an expert on this, but I certainly do not believe that cultural (mis)appropriation is an issue here. As others have mentioned, Antonio is fantastic at paying homage to his inspirations in a respectful manner. And I find the perspectives of the South Asian members of this forum very interesting - I never really considered the viewpoint of a wide swath of the world that has largely been disenfranchised in the fashion industry.

Nonetheless, just because you can wear something, doesn't necessarily mean that you should. By way of example, I cannot wear a lot of things that Jasper or Antonio might wear, and look "convincing." However, that says a lot about my swag (or lack thereof) and personal style, and a lot less about the clothing itself. For most of my life, I wore khakis and pastel polos - it is hard for me to jump into any clothing too rooted in South or East Asia and feel comfortable. This has not kept me from gravitating from Japanese and South Korean interpretations of American and British workwear, which is probably one of my favorite areas.

Oh, one more thing.

Personally, I would not purchase the "Eastern suit," the garment KJ is pictured in which inspired this conversation, and a few other things. However, I would not hesitate from wearing (and, in fact, do wear) many other things produced by the brand, including just about all of the knitwear, the sherpa jacket, etc.

 

[Peter1]

From what I can tell, 18 East tries to involve the culture being appropriated, as it were. And I think that done well, borrowing from other cultures can raise awareness and deepen appreciation. Maybe because i'm a fan of EG I thought that the "salmon people" pattern from 7-8 years ago was an excellent way to draw attention to NW tribal designs, as I think this year's Japanese and Navajo patterns are, too. I can't help thinking, though, that designers ought to make an effort to have their fabrics or cut n sew stuff made by that culture. Looks like 18 East is doing that to a large extent.

 

[bry2000]

From what I can tell, 18 East tries to involve the culture being appropriated, as it were.

I don’t follow. How does 18east involve the culture?

 

[Peter1]

I don’t follow. How does 18east involve the culture?

You're being a bit obdurate here for whatever reason, but their India-inspired collection was made in India, for example, even though it included items like sherpa vests that could have been made anywhere. And this may be superficial, but the models were Indian.

 

[NickPollica]

I can't help thinking, though, that designers ought to make an effort to have their fabrics or cut n sew stuff made by that culture. Looks like 18 East is doing that to a large extent.

A few quick words on something that deserves a lot more time as I commute in this morning:

Everything comes from somewhere and I want to live in a world where people are active in learning about and appreciating cultures different from those they were born into.

The jump off for drop three was a handful of vintage garments featuring incredibly intricate textiles from the Black Hmong tribes of Vietnam and Thailand. While knot closure work coats can be found throughout Asia, ours was meant as a nod to the men of these tribes. We have worked directly with the artisans of these tribes to develop the indigo textiles used in upcoming outerwear as well as the next batch of A&R jeans.

 

[bry2000]

You're being a bit obdurate here for whatever reason, but their India-inspired collection was made in India, for example, even though it included items like sherpa vests that could have been made anywhere. And this may be superficial, but the models were Indian.

Haha I am not being stubborn. Is that the best example you can come up with?

As I said, this is cultural appropriation. That, in and of itself, may not be problematic. It is a personal decision.

 

[dieworkwear]

As I said, this is cultural appropriation. That, in and of itself, may not be problematic. It is a personal decision.

There's a difference between cultural inspiration and cultural appropriation. The idea that consuming anything outside of your culture is "appropriation" is wrongheaded because it assumes there are such things as pure cultures. Whatever culture you identify with has already mixed and remixed by over 500 years of globalization. No culture at this point is "pure," our oldest traditions are already influenced by migrants and traders from the Silk Roads.

(Also, a side point, but this framing of cultural appropriation is annoying because it leads to stupid arguments where someone puts their hands on their hips and says "oh yea, so does that mean I can't eat chinese foooodddd?")

The arguments about cultural appropriation are for more multi-culturalism -- not less. They come from a long tradition of liberalism, which argues for greater inclusivity. It's just in this case, people have talked about how consumer habits, at times, can be more inclusive and considerate of minority groups.

That means not taking things that would be sacred for superficial reasons (e.g. not wearing an Indian headdress at a music concert cause you think it's cool). It also means not crowding out the market for workers who already make something, esp if they're from vulnerable groups (e.g. don't make Navajo weaving replicas in China and then sell them here, driving down the price for Navajo weavings made by people who's only economic lifeline is in this kind of trade).

18 East borrows in the most respectful way that I can see. They don't take things to mock other groups. They take bits of culture and remix them into new things. And they even hire workers from those communities, which creates jobs. This is a great example of cultural inspiration, not appropriation.

 

[losrockets]

As a South Asian, what Antonio did w his last Eidos collection and then with the first 18 East drop, from the models he chose, to using traditional designs and textiles in ways that paid an homage to their heritage, to going beyond simply transparency about where the products are made to actually honoring those roots filled me with a sense of pride I don't typically have toward clothing. Contrast that with the ubiquitous "color run" events that happen year round and in every city which I even see other South Asians participating in without a hint of irony... those are mostly for the photo op, regardless of whatever the event is described as. Certainly it doesn't have to be either / or but at least for me, it's clear of these appropriates culture.

To give a clothing example that I still don't think quite meets my criteria for approprotion but is jsut an uncomfortable look for me: last year I purchased traditionally Western garment from an AV here with an African inspired pattern. When I got it, I realized that it doesn't really harmonize with the rest of the clothes such a garment is typically worn with, at least in my closet, and thus feels forced and awkward. I haven't worn it out. The inspirations for the design were clearly spelled out and it wasn't sold in a gimmicky way, eg to be worn only w other African inspired stuff, modeled on white men, so it doesn't cross my threshold for appropriation, imo it's just not a great item for me.

 

[VirtruviusR]

@NickPollica any chance you guys have any excess yak/wool blend fabric from the Nomad cardi?

I bought an M back in the first drop. I love the sweater, but I probably should have sized up. My over-long arms make it so that I can't roll the sleeve cuffs and they hover right on the edge of too-short IMO, but I had the crazy idea that I might have my tailor add extra material to the ends cut & sew style so I could have sweet heavy rolled cuffs. Fortunately the fit through the body and shoulders is good.

Also, I haven't logged in in years, how the heck does one send PMs? My b.

--

As for this cultural appropriation thing; naw. Forgetting the logical argument, as an Indian dude, this doesn't feel like cultural appropriation (speaking to earlier drops/collections at least). If you've ever felt your culture "appropriated", you know that there is a real feeling that that gins up. It's pretty instinctual. This isn't it. If anything, it's cool that if brings a respect for and nuanced treatment of "exotic" cultures and fabric/clothing traditions into a more accessible realm for more people. Intent is pretty important, and I think that shines through clearly.

E.g. Drop 1 had an Indian guy modeling Indian-inspired clothes that were, in large part, cut and sewn by Indians in India.

E.g.2 I bought 18 east drop1 stuff while on a ****** internet connection in rural India (no lie). I showed relatives pictures, they thought it was cool and interesting that "westerners" were into this stuff in general. Again, not some airtight rational argument, but it passes the smell test.

 

[mossrockss]

this entire conversation is why people voted for Trump

 

[dieworkwear]

this entire conversation is why people voted for Trump

Trump is also the reason why people have these conversations.

 

[troika]

This has been a good discussion, and I look forward to more of Antonio's input on the matter. I actually feel really lucky that we are able to have the designer participate in the thread directly, and give us insight into the thinking. And after all, we should give everyone the benefit of the doubt, IMO there is no question about integrity of intent here.

I'd also like to point out that maybe only 1-2 people really think it's cultural appropriation, and the rest see that it could be interpreted that way, and are participating in the conversation, which is great. The garment itself is an interesting blend of influences/inspirations. There are clearly prominent Asian details (I know it's akin to calling Africa a country, sorry, but I can't really attribute it a single culture in this case), but also DR inspired with the cross closure and cinches, which is pretty cool. It's almost like distilling the melting pot of cultures in America into a garment. I get that Antonio himself isn't this exact cross-section, but that's ok. People with the actual background that it is referencing are voicing their opinion, and we should listen. If someone created this with Ukrainian patterns and traditional designs, I'd be kinda stoked that random people find beauty in it as well.

 

[mossrockss]

Trump is also the reason why people have these conversations.

Haha touché!

 

[crazn]

all of us appropriate western clothing? Anyway let’s just go back to talking about clothes please.