Gun Appreciation Thread

[MGWS]

I love the shotgun. It makes me so happy.

Mia and I are taking a private class with Ben Stoeger this week to help our pistol game. Should be interesting.

Ben Stoeger has such a great attitude and personality. I've read his books and watched his DVD's. Those private classes are going to be amazing. Please post about it.

I took performance pistol with Frank Proctor and it was OK. The covert carry class with Mike Pannone was great and really improved my CCW. I must have performed 500 concealment draws that weekend. I've done some local defensive courses but Pannones class was by far the one that helped me the most since I CCW daily. My grail class is Shivworks Extreme Close Quarter Concepts.

 

[suited]

Speaking of shotguns, I redid the ****** factory finish on my Mossberg 500 with duracoat. I replaced the stock forend with a Hogue, added a Mesa Tactical stock adapter that allows the installation of a mil-spec buffer tube, and installed a BCM pistol grip. I'm going to add a Magpul CTR stock, Mesa Tactical side saddle, and upgrade the safety to an aluminum version that's easier to grip with your thumb.

 

[Mauro]

Ben Stoeger has such a great attitude and personality. I've read his books and watched his DVD's. Those private classes are going to be amazing. Please post about it.

I took performance pistol with Frank Proctor and it was OK. The covert carry class with Mike Pannone was great and really improved my CCW. I must have performed 500 concealment draws that weekend. I've done some local defensive courses but Pannones class was by far the one that helped me the most since I CCW daily. My grail class is Shivworks Extreme Close Quarter Concepts.

Ben's private class for me and my daughter didn't disappoint. I would have happily paid double of what I paid. The time with him was just on another level.
Ben explains everything in away that you can understand. He takes his time to break everything and I mean everything down piece by piece.
If you are interested follow my daughter on instagram her tag is 22_gun_girl. There is a two part video I filmed of her and ben. It's very cool to watch.

Anyway here's how the 7 hours of training went. We started a 9am and shot until 4pm. We did break for lunch. We ended up shooting 2k rounds, total.

We talked a little and Ben set up a field of fire. He asked us to shoot that particular course 3 times. After we finished he told us what we needed to work on and went straight into dry fire. While we were dry firing he pushed us to go faster and faster until flaws in our technique started to show. He then broke down why the flaws were happening and how to fix them.
We kept going.
After the dry firing, I thought my hands were going to fall off. We then went into the "Bill Drill" starting at 5 yards and then if we "passed" we would take two big steps back. Both Mia and I got a little past 25 yards before we couldn't regularly hit ALL "A's". Unlike the traditional "Bill Drill" we weren't timed but we couldn't go slow. We were shooting in the 2.5 to 3.5 second mark from the holster.
Ben knew Mia and I only had one year of competitive shooting under our belts so he didn't show full disgust at any time. Though on a couple occasions he did tell me I was shooting like a "*****" and needed to pick up the pace.

After the 'Bill Drill" we did a similar drill but we had to "double tap" putting 8 rounds in the "A" zone. Mia fell apart at 20 yards and Ben was kinda upset and let Mia know it. I was glad Ben was tough on Mia. I fell apart at 25 yards.

At certain times in that "double tap" drill Ben would have us hold our guns and he would pull the trigger. This was to show pace and the fact that if we gripped the pistol correctly the round would go where we aimed it.

After that drill we moved to transitions. This was a critical part of the class for me. The two things he stressed most was crushing the grip with our support had and moving our eyes first. Mia has this down much better than myself. It's odd I have problems with this considering our "steel challenge" background. Look,move,look, move,look, move, he drilled us. You can hear him in the video on instagram. Another things he stressed was having your gun up at the right time to maximize or really minimize your time.
We ran these transitions drills until I literally was going to puke.

Finally, we just banged out some rounds at some "skinny sammy's" at 25 yards. It didn't seem easy out it wasn't hard.

Mia and I were beat. He then gave us a couple books that he wrote to help our dry fire and live fire training.

His online persona and real life personality are really different. He is brutally honest so when he said he was happy with something or we did something perfect it felt really good to hear. Normally, he was just shaking his head or giving a grunt of displeasure.

At the very end of the class we talked about our goals and how to obtain them. I felt really really good after the class. He told me that if Mia kept it up and trained like he expects her to that she could beat Ashley Rheuark. I was so happy when he said that. It just so happens that tomorrow, Mia and I leave for Topton, PA to 3gun camp where Ashley is an instructor and will be teaching Mia. I will video the **** out of them training together. Tommy Thacker is teaching her rifle. The level of instruction is pretty stacked.

Ben did tell Mia she should focus on USPSA but I think he is a little biased, lol.

All in all if you need help on any level I would confidently recommend Ben. A lot of the stuff we were doing was basic but with out the proper fundamentals your game will never be what it could be. He would also say that a lot.

I think Mia and I will progress pretty fast and when we hit a wall we will hit him up again for another class.

Another cool thing that he offered was to call or email him if we ever had a problem or didn't understand something from his books or if our game was off. The dude is just cool. money well spent.

 

[Mauro]

Ben Stoeger has such a great attitude and personality. I've read his books and watched his DVD's. Those private classes are going to be amazing. Please post about it.

I took performance pistol with Frank Proctor and it was OK. The covert carry class with Mike Pannone was great and really improved my CCW. I must have performed 500 concealment draws that weekend. I've done some local defensive courses but Pannones class was by far the one that helped me the most since I CCW daily. My grail class is Shivworks Extreme Close Quarter Concepts.

You need to check out http://www.stormmountain.com

 

[suited]

For anyone needing a quality kydex holster, Raven Concealment is having a closeout sale on their Phantom holsters (half price). I have one for my G26 (and another on the way for a G20), and for an OWB holster it hugs the body very close, rides high, and is capable of concealed carry if you are wearing heavier clothing. The retention is such that you could throw the holster in a bag and not worry about the firearm slipping out of it.

http://raven-concealment-systems1.mybigcommerce.com/clearance-items/

 

[Mauro]

Is anyone shooting "NSSF Worlds"? Mia and I will be there. On another note Mia and I shot the "NRA Worlds Shoot" this year. That match was beyond fun. Mia had to shoot as a pro and did alright considering who she was up against and the fact none of the guns were remotely close to fitting her correctly. I strongly recommend shooting it next year if you can.

 

[suited]

A few days ago I hiked to a fishing spot on a large nature preserve near our house. On the way back I ran into a family of wild hogs. The adults looked big enough to do some serious damage - hard to tell from the distance but I estimate between 200-250lbs. Luckily I spotted them before they were too close, but I felt better about investing in the 10mm Glock 20 I was carrying at the time, as well as the 200 grain, hard cast, flat nose rounds that were a buck a pop. I wouldn't want to deal with two or three pissed off adult hogs, but having 16 rounds before having to reload is really nice.

 

[brokencycle]

I don't know if a 10mm would make me feel any safer with wild hogs. You might wound them and get them to run off, but I could just as easily see them getting pissed and charging anyway.

 

[suited]

10mm is somewhat popular for hog hunting. The hotter rounds are more potent than a .357 magnum and not far behind a .41 magnum - and the hard cast rounds are more than capable of penetrating a skull or thick tissue and reaching vitals. The G20 is a common sidearm for black bear protection, too. With multiple hogs I think I'd rather have 16 rounds of 10mm before a reload instead of lugging a magnum revolver that's twice as heavy and three times as difficult to shoot accurately (for me, anyway).

 

[JLibourel]

^Having seen some pretty poor performances on wild hogs with .41, .44 and even .454 Casull Magnums and having heard of many other failures with cartridges like these, I do not consider any "conventional" handgun cartridge to be humane and efficient for killing wild hogs. As for carrying a 10mm for defense against wild hogs, well, it would certainly be better than nothing. However, the likelihood of an unprovoked attack by wild hogs is extremely rare--at least in America. Eurasian wild boars typically run considerably larger than American ones and are reputed to be more savage.

I will add that the gunwriter canard that "the 10mm Auto is not far behind the .41 Magnum" is about like saying the .308 Winchester is not far behind the .300 Winchester Magnum.

 

[mimo]

At the risk of opening the endless debates over calibres, I have an observation about the 10mm: one thing I've noticed from my little experience and greater reading, is that some calibres are a lot more affected by barrel length than others. The long magnum calibres seem to lose a lot more, and a lot more quickly, as barrel length decreases. Sure, a .357 snubby is still more powerful than a similar .38, but compare them both at 6, 4 and 2 inches, and the curve is far steeper for the .357 - and the upward curve of unpleasantness to shoot is pretty steep too.

The same seems to be true of the 10mm, compared to a 40SW or 45. The .45 doesn't lose much at all in going from a full size to commander size 1911 for instance. But the 10mm really wants one of they fancy huntin' long slides to make any sense. Not that the G20 isn't still a beast. But an extra inch on the barrel - a custom job, or switching to the G40 - appears to make a significantly bigger bang.

I've looked at this a lot with rifles (more relevant and accessible where I come from). The .308/300WM comparison is a good example: power falls off a cliff with the WM below 23in, whereas although the loss of power continues, it's progressive and rational with the .308 down to about 12.5-13in barrels. No coincidence that makers of military carbines in .308 like FN and SIG, tend to settle around that length. As a rough indication, it seems like the bigger the ratio of cartridge to bullet, the more geometric the increase/decrease in energy according to the barrel length. Self-evident, I suppose - big case, small bore, more powder to burn in the smaller space. At the other extreme, a relatively short, straight rifle round like the 45/70 has a very linear and small loss of performance at every step, right down to about a foot.

Point is, it's not just about the calibre or even the load. A .44 in a 2.5in barrel makes an impressive noise, but a 10mm longslide matches up favourably, and a .38 in a lever rifle too. If a compact handgun is what's required, bigger and slower would make more sense to me. I guess there's a reason you 'Murricans love your 45s...I'd love one too.

 

[suited]

^Having seen some pretty poor performances on wild hogs with .41, .44 and even .454 Casull Magnums and having heard of many other failures with cartridges like these, I do not consider any "conventional" handgun cartridge to be humane and efficient for killing wild hogs. As for carrying a 10mm for defense against wild hogs, well, it would certainly be better than nothing. However, the likelihood of an unprovoked attack by wild hogs is extremely rare--at least in America. Eurasian wild boars typically run considerably larger than American ones and are reputed to be more savage.

I will add that the gunwriter canard that "the 10mm Auto is not far behind the .41 Magnum" is about like saying the .308 Winchester is not far behind the .300 Winchester Magnum.

I wouldn't use a handgun to hunt anything - just pointing out that the 10mm with the right round can penetrate through a hog skull or broadside through enough tissue to reach the hart. Agree that the odds of being attacked are low - but my encounter wasn't in a wide open area. I was walking alone and it was very windy. Because I wasn't making any noise and they probably didn't smell me, had I stopped fishing two minutes earlier I would have found myself within a very short distance of them as they crossed under the fence into this short grassy area. On the left side of the path a lake backs right up to those trees, so there's nowhere to go left. A barbed wire fence runs along the right side of this path. You can see the three adults and several babies here in this pic. As far as the .41, aren't the ballistics of the hottest 10mm loads on par with the low/middle tier .41 magnum loads?

 

[JLibourel]

Well, pretty much any handgun is going to be a paltry defense against a large, dangerous animal that is trying to get you. You could do a lot worse than a 10mm with the right loads--certainly higher capacity and quicker follow-up shots than with full-power .41 or .44 Magnum, yet still packing a fair punch. Of course the 10mm is equal to or more potent than the .41 with low or medium handloads. Hell, a lot of the .41 Magnum handloads I shoot are delivering about 750 or 800 fps with a 215-grain commercially cast bullet. (I like mild loads for a lot of my practice because I don't like pounding my hand...or beating the hell out of my lovely vintage Smith 57s.) However, were I packing a sidearm for defense against anything with tusks, fangs, horns or claws that had unfriendly designs on my person, I'd want all the power I could get! I might add the same argument could be used for the 9mmP and the .357 Magnum. Load the latter down somewhat and you've got 9mm ballistics.

 

[JLibourel]

At the risk of opening the endless debates over calibres, I have an observation about the 10mm: one thing I've noticed from my little experience and greater reading, is that some calibres are a lot more affected by barrel length than others. The long magnum calibres seem to lose a lot more, and a lot more quickly, as barrel length decreases. Sure, a .357 snubby is still more powerful than a similar .38, but compare them both at 6, 4 and 2 inches, and the curve is far steeper for the .357 - and the upward curve of unpleasantness to shoot is pretty steep too.

The same seems to be true of the 10mm, compared to a 40SW or 45. The .45 doesn't lose much at all in going from a full size to commander size 1911 for instance. But the 10mm really wants one of they fancy huntin' long slides to make any sense. Not that the G20 isn't still a beast. But an extra inch on the barrel - a custom job, or switching to the G40 - appears to make a significantly bigger bang.

I've looked at this a lot with rifles (more relevant and accessible where I come from). The .308/300WM comparison is a good example: power falls off a cliff with the WM below 23in, whereas although the loss of power continues, it's progressive and rational with the .308 down to about 12.5-13in barrels. No coincidence that makers of military carbines in .308 like FN and SIG, tend to settle around that length. As a rough indication, it seems like the bigger the ratio of cartridge to bullet, the more geometric the increase/decrease in energy according to the barrel length. Self-evident, I suppose - big case, small bore, more powder to burn in the smaller space. At the other extreme, a relatively short, straight rifle round like the 45/70 has a very linear and small loss of performance at every step, right down to about a foot.

Point is, it's not just about the calibre or even the load. A .44 in a 2.5in barrel makes an impressive noise, but a 10mm longslide matches up favourably, and a .38 in a lever rifle too. If a compact handgun is what's required, bigger and slower would make more sense to me. I guess there's a reason you 'Murricans love your 45s...I'd love one too.

In the modest amount of testing I have done in this matter, I think it is impossible to dogmatize about barrel length and velocity. A lot of the revered old-timers liked to come up with claims of "40 fps of velocity loss per inch of barrel shorter" and that kind of thing. For instance, Jack Lott once pontificated to me that with a 30-inch barrel the .308 Winchester was the ballistic equal to a .300 magnum from a 24-inch, which is horsecrap.

One time a colleague of mine and I ran a comparative velocity test pitting his Savage 110 with a 22-inch barrel against my newly acquired Browning 1885 single-shot with a 28-inch barrel. These were .30-06s. With all loads, predictably, the longer barrel gave higher velocities, but the differentials ranged from as little as 40 fps to as much as 190 fps, and damned if I know how to account for that. Based on similar tests I've seen, powder burning rate doesn't seem to affect matters as much as one might think.

Another time, I ran chronograph tests with a pair of Colt .38 Supers. One was a 5-inch pistol, the other was a Combat Commander. Each had been fitted with spare 9mm barrels. We fired what few .38 Super factory loads we had on hand and a passel of 9mm loads. In nearly all cases, velocity loss in both calibers between the 5-inch and the 4.25-inch barrels was pretty slight--about 30 to 40 fps. Yet with one or two loads the 9mm actually produced slightly higher (about 30 fps) velocities from the shorter barrel, for reasons that elude me. Differences in velocity and power between the 9mm and .38 Super loads were not great in most cases.

When the Colt Officer's ACP came out, I tried chronographing some Federal 230-grain hardball in that and in my (5-inch) Government Model for comparison. From the longer barrel the velocity was 815 fps, from the 3 1/2-inch Officer's it was only 750 fps, so I'm not sure that low-velocity big-bore bullets minimize velocity loss.

Given the fact the modern firearms technology has changed very little since before the outset of WWI, it's amazing how mysterious they still can be. One of the most knowledgeable gun guys I know, a very beloved gunwriter, recently remarked to me that he had concluded, after a lifetime of shooting and experimentation, that he really didn't know much about guns at all, and I could say much the same of myself.

 

[JLibourel]

Just saw in yesterday's news that a fellow on bear hunt in North Carolina was suddenly confronted at very close range by a gigantic, 640-pound black bear. He quickly borrowed the guide's rifle (his buddies had been out chasing the bears, he was merely waiting around) and dropped the monster bear dead in his tracks with a single, well placed shot to the neck. And what did he use? None other than good old .30-30 that's been around over 122 years. So much for all the bullcrap about "caliber adequacy" and the need for the newest magnums that is spewed out endlessly in the gun press and elsewhere!