Shoe prices

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

^ That was a good post. Accurate in almost every respect. I would say that fiberboard or leartherboard as an insole is a little more prevalent than you suggest but it's a trivial point.

The one thing I learned here some time ago, however, is that even with the high end manufacturers who do dabble in bespoke, and do use leather insoles, the inseam may still be Goodyear welted.

In a similar discussion some time ago, a photo of a pair of bespoke shoes from a very prestigious manufacturer was posted and the accompanying text (by the customer, IIRC,) detailed how the forepart cavity was filled with cork so that even in trial mode the gemming would not flatten out. I won't say anymore about that but it surprised me.


Thank you DWFII

Actually I agree with your points noted. Complete leather insoles are quite rare and if we measure total shoe volume output worldwide would not even be significant I suspect. And as for a hand carved holdfast in proper grade leather insole that would likely be a small footnote in the annex.

I really wanted to convey that without appropriate proof we should view all RTW (and some bespoke) as suspect no matter the price. I have to admit I was very surprised to learn that Vass was actually carving a holdfast!!! And as you mention there maybe othe rsmall operation that do RTW in small volume that might do this as well but of which I personally have no knowledge.

About cork.. what is it with that!!!!!! Everytime I think of this I am reminded of an inscription on a few keystones of the finest cathedrals "Nothing but stone". I think something like this should adapted to shoes" Nothing but leather" - No cork, cardboard, plastic ect. As I think you mentioned a long time ago it is just logical to use leather to fill the cavity instead of cork.

Originally Posted by Doc4

Click to expand...

For the most part, I think that those of us who frequent SF are the few who want quality, and .

This part of my statement was directed at all consumers in general not SF in particular.

DW, in this thread you remind me of the times when I was young and would argue with my dad. I'd want him to just tell me something, and he'd say "No, go figure it out for yourself." I'd go half-ass it and come back saying "Ok, I tried but failed, so give me the answer." He'd repeat "No, you can do it." At this point I'd get upset and petulant, demanding he tell me and presenting an impassioned case for why I was entitled to the information and he was beholden to provide it. While my father is a man prone to temper at times, for most of these occasions he'd sit there with this smirk on his face and simply repeat "I'm not going to tell you. Do it yourself." I myself, being not the most... gracious of children but certainly stubborn, would usually at this point become stubborn and refuse to do it myself. That is, until my curiosity and got the better of me and I went out and learned it - curiousity will be my downfall. Eventually, I'd figured it out - along with quite a number of other things I didn't think necessarily related and were not only interesting but pertinent - and go back saying "Alright, I've done it. Not only have I done it, but I now know far more than I was asking about!" At this point he'd just smirk, slap me upside the head, and ask me what took so long.

There's also a version of this story where we argue and I tell him he's wrong, and then later we end up with the similar outcome of "Oh yeah, you were right all along" that I'm reminded of as well, but that one seems the most pertinent. I think you probably get the point.

^ It's a good story and a good lesson. Thank you. But I hope I differ in at least one respect...for those who will listen I haven't been exactly stingy with the amount of information I am willing to share. To the contrary I often explain in greater detail than the sound-bite limited attention spans and 140 character twits have patience for. For the most part I do not feel any responsibility to teach people here how to do their homework or exercise due diligence, even though I do recognize the validity and the value in the concept. I really hope I function more as a teacher than a father. Or just someone who is open to sharing a fast disappearing and privileged set of experiences and perspectives.

^ Well, he was often more cryptic and always willing to help when the need was actually there, but the details make a short story long and besides it's neither here nor there. You certainly are not stingy with your information, though it may occasionally require cyphering or digestion - neither of which is a bad thing. In any case though, I think you are successful in your aim. As far as this thread goes your points have been clear, and there is good guidance regarding the things to look for or ask about when buying that I and others might not previously have considered. Thanks again for your perspective.

Originally Posted by mktitsworth

Click to expand...

As far as this thread goes your points have been clear, and there is good guidance regarding the things to look for or ask about when buying that I and others might not previously have considered. Thanks again for your perspective.
You're very welcome... tioreadh

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

I really hope I function more as a teacher than a father. Or just someone who is open to sharing a fast disappearing and privileged set of experiences and perspectives.

You are at the very least a guide, DW. I've started corresponding with Jon Gray, and today he mentioned that the selection of leather for the insole and the lining is very important. I've never given any thought to those parts of the shoe before. I think I'll have an interesting education when I do meet up with him.

P.S. You're right. His price is actually slightly lower than the retail price of high-end RTW mens' shoes--unless one thrifts here or on eBay.

Originally Posted by Asian Afro

Click to expand...

You are at the very least a guide, DW. I've started corresponding with Jon Gray, and today he mentioned that the selection of leather for the insole and the lining is very important. I've never given any thought to those parts of the shoe before. I think I'll have an interesting education when I do meet up with him. P.S. You're right. His price is actually slightly lower than the retail price of high-end RTW mens' shoes--unless one thrifts here or on eBay.
+100 I always knew he was a good'n.

Originally Posted by Xenon

Click to expand...

TBH it is amazing nowadays that certain shoes such as Vass still employ all that leather given the overwelming apathy to materials by most consumers. I say this full well knowing how special most of the SF crowd is (I don't necessarily mean that in a good way but more of an OCD way).

Branding and the crowd mentality is far more important to most than quality. The few that want quality want it cheap and quickly. And this situation will only get worse. Humans make cheap shoes because we know how to. Quality as a default is long gone.

Originally Posted by Xenon

Click to expand...

This part of my statement was directed at all consumers in general not SF in particular.
It's okay, I knew you were referring to the general crowd; I merely meant to draw a distinction that most SF'ers are NOT that way but tend to be part of the small minority that seek out quality over brand names ... and thus would be more interested in information about which maker uses the best materials and methods. We are, as you say, "special".

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

^ I understand and I sympathize. You make your case convincingly. However I am old and ... I am not persuaded.

... old dog ... new trick ... ?? Nope. I know when I'm licked.

Years ago I worked a summer youth job and spent like 3 weeks pay on a fat [canal street] gold chain. When I got home my father asked, "Boy, can you eat that chain??". This was a man with 6 children being the sole breadwinner speaking.

I could care less if the chain was edible or not but now I realize what he was asking. The OP would do well to ponder the same.

Originally Posted by Doc4

Click to expand...

... old dog ... new trick ... ?? Nope. I know when I'm licked.

Can...next generation...learn from...wisdom of ...elders? Probably not. If it were so the world would be a lot better place.

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

Can...next generation...learn from...wisdom of ...elders?

Probably not. If it were so the world would be a lot better place.

So ... which shoemakers use leatherboard? C'mon, tell us, pleeeeeease!

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

Finally, come on guys...it's not all that hard. If a decent pair of bespoke, hand-welted, leather insoled shoes, comes in at around the $1000.00 mark (minimum), it's no great leap of logic to determine that everything else...everything...below that price point has incorporated some expediencies into the manufacturing process. And the further from that price point the worse it gets.

In the past week I learned about D.C. Lewis, and another upcoming line of shoes from an MTO shoemaker well known to SF members. Both lines tout (or will tout) shoes that match the high RTW range but at much lower prices.

Would you say that the launch of these new labels as signs of price correction, as most shoes from respected brands are made using less-than-ideal methods, and could probably be sold at a lower price and still be profitable?

Furthermore, would such competition force those respected brands to restore some of the better practices of shoemaking to justify their prices, especially if those practices wouldn't cost much more?

I hope I'm not doing this by asking these questions.

Originally Posted by Asian Afro

Click to expand...

In the past week I learned about D.C. Lewis, and another upcoming line of shoes from an MTO shoemaker well known to SF members. Both lines tout (or will tout) shoes that match the high RTW range but at much lower prices. Would you say that the launch of these new labels as signs of price correction, as most shoes from respected brands are made using less-than-ideal methods, and could probably be sold at a lower price and still be profitable? Furthermore, would such competition force those respected brands to restore some of the better practices of shoemaking to justify their prices, especially if those practices wouldn't cost much more? I hope I'm not doing this

by asking these questions.
A case can be made that most, if not all, of the higher priced RTW's are selling brand cachet as much or more than premium materials or workmanship. What you're buying is blue sky. But price competition has never...say again, never...forced better materials or better workmanship among rivals...at any price point. The thing to understand is that you're dealing with an entire set of processes and an immutable set of underlying assumptions that inform not just a specific brand but the whole manufacturing model. Manufacturers have devolved away from hand work; devolved away from making quality the primary focus, to a model that makes profit the primary focus--the be all and end all. As in the natural world, once devolution has taken place, there is no return. So no, I don't believe that price competition will create pressure to offer a better product...I doubt there is any historical precedence for such a thing...to the contrary I think it will only force the high end outfits to re-evaluate their process to see if more efficiency, more compromise, more profits can be squeezed out. That's how they got to where they are now; that's how so many of the low end guys went from historically high end, even bespoke, makers to cardboard insoles.

Originally Posted by DWFII

Click to expand...

But price competition has never...say again, never...forced better materials or better workmanship among rivals...at any price point.

Do you or anyone know when serious devolution in construction and material began to take place? I was just reading this thread and it made me wonder whether shoes by well-regarded makers from 30 or 40 years ago would be much better made. (Trouble is, one can't find them brand new now.)

People on SF sometimes talk about decades-old Allen Edmonds that are still in good shape and use them as examples of shoes that aren't made to the highest quality but are more than good enough. However, perhaps those old shoes were made to a higher level of quality than today's.

And to flip this question...when RTW shoes were better made, what did bespoke shoes offer other than a better fit and personalized design? As I understand it, today's bespoke from top brands do not compromise--or compromise less--on quality. As devolution probably took place over a long period of time, did the bespoke then also offered better quality, but there were fewer differences between bespoke and ready-made so that was less of a selling point?