The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

[Tried and True]



But is there any point in destroying or reducing its potential value? .

This clock, the Duc D'Orléans Breguet Sympathique, was a complete mess, inside and out before it was painstakingly refurbished. Its value doesn't seem to have been affected as its auction price suggests. But more importantly, it now has the appearance that the maker had intended when he created the piece. I'm sure that Abraham-Louis Breguet was sad to see his creation in such a dilapidated state and smiled upon seeing its wonderful restoration.

 

[apropos]

It's not as simple as self appointed purists decrying any and all redialing no matter the circumstances.

The problem is that most redial jobs are horrible, and definitely do not fall under the umbrella of "restoration". That Breguet was restored (not "refurbished") by a specialist who was likely partly/wholly museum trained. Not the same as your usual redialer. And the price it achieved reflects that in part.

For your usual redial however... Original materials/methods are not used. Printing is blurry, or off centre. Gloss vs matte finishes. Smudged text. Lines are not fine. Lume plots are messy. etc etc etc

To make it worse the people who actually do the redials don't usually even have a point of reference. How many "reference dials" do you think a redialer has? How will he/she know whether a Ranchero dial is matte/glossy? The exact shade of white, or silver? The idiosyncrasies of 60s IWC dial fonts? "T < 25" and/or "Swiss Made"? Or even the size of a lume plot?

When you actually know what a dial should look like (like I guess most purists do, or think they do), the vast majority of redials are essentially - to use a technical-ish term - homages. Inspired by, mimicking the original, basically identical to the untrained eye, but not the same - sometimes not even close.

And so the value correspondingly falls. Unfortunately there is a negative halo effect, and even the good redials get caught up.

I see no problem with that, makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Novelty77]

on the wrist - I must say that I'm quite taken with it.

Quote:

Congrats! This is one of those watches, where at first I was very cold on, but the more I saw them in person the more I really started to love it.

Congrats on the recent acquisitions guys! I share the same sentiments with DLJr. Aquanaut really doesn't shine by itself. But damn it looks gorgeous on the wrist. Some watches looks great by themselves but undermining on the wrist.

Here's my contribution for today. Attending a wedding lunch and a wedding dinner on the same day. Love how versatile the lange 1 is.

 

[Novelty77]

Going back to a daily beater/tool watch which earlier I ask about some suggestions. I finally made my decision on this watch. Early X'mas Present for myself.

The SINN EZM 3.

Very under the radar with its matt finishes. Sometimes I think the sub is a lil flashy due to the superb polishing and the shiny ceramic bezel. Perfect size, the u2 is too large and thick for me. At its price point, I think its the most bang for buck tool watch. Swimming, to the beach, trekking, whatever, I wouldn't think twice about removing it.

 

[gazman70k]

Been lurking heaps and have enjoyed the Nato strap bonanza and some of the lovely APs, ALs and Pateks on display.

Thought I'd better contribute and throw in a few Panerai's into the mix.

 

[MODUOMO]

Been lurking heaps and have enjoyed the Nato strap bonanza and some of the lovely APs, ALs and Pateks on display.

Thought I'd better contribute and throw in a few Panerai's into the mix.

really nice!

 

[ShawnBC]

^^ love Sinn watches! They don't get the recognition they deserve!

 

[RogerP]

This clock, the Duc D'Orléans Breguet Sympathique, was a complete mess, inside and out before it was painstakingly refurbished. Its value doesn't seem to have been affected as its auction price suggests. But more importantly, it now has the appearance that the maker had intended when he created the piece. I'm sure that Abraham-Louis Breguet was sad to see his creation in such a dilapidated state and smiled upon seeing its wonderful restoration.

Hear hear.

 

[Tried and True]



That Breguet was restored (not "refurbished") by a specialist

I've heard both words used to mean the same thing in the watch world. The people who worked on the Breguet used both, as did the clock's owner. And I used both in my post.

From Patek Philippe: "Please note that the refurbishing of the case and bracelet is not included in the maintenance, but left for your personal preference."

 

[Dino944]

There are those who attempt to monetize watches as if they were an investment asset. I'm not one of those people. I consider watches to be personal property (like cars, boats, etc..) and while that do have some value they do not rise to the level of an investment vehicle. With rare exception, the only people profiting off watches are manufacturers and dealers.

Regarding your statement, "I've refurbished lots of old things (cars, homes, boats, etc..) so I don't see why a watch would be any different," just be cause you can't see a difference, doesn't mean there isn't one. Outside of your own collecting view, the difference is value and on some level appeal to others as for many collectors not all watches are keepers. You may never consider selling your watch, but many people do. On the originality level, some collectors only purchase NOS or original mint condition, so the market may be smaller for reselling/trading redials, and hence the value of nice looking redialed watch will generally be less than a mint condition original piece (although each can be enjoyed by difference consumers).


As for your examples, refurbishing a house is the easiest thing to do in terms of increasing perhaps its efficiency, beauty,value, and possible appeal to others (if its going to be sold). In addition, there isn't an issue of whether it was done using OEM/NOS parts or to original specifications (unless maybe its a house designed by Frank Lloyd Wright, and constructed under his supervision). With a car you get into issues of aftermarket vs. oem parts, and the quality of the work, condition, and value may differ drastically if you just hire a local garage to do the work or a true expert in restorations such as Paul Russell and Co. With a watch, a redial isn't the same as sending a watch back to the factory for a complete restoration using, factory parts, and where possible using the original tools and methods to restore something to its original glory. And even then, a mint condition original watch may still have a greater appeal and value to potential collectors/buyers.

If you don't think their is actual value in an original dial, just consider the value of a vintage Rolex Red Sub or a PN Daytona. One of the first things people are doing when buying these pieces is verifying that it is the original dial. There is no shortage of shady resellers who have swapped dials, or painted Submariner in red to try increase their profit by pulling one over on less astute collectors.

I like Roger's watch and think a redial was the right thing in this situation. I previously mentioned to Roger where a dial is badly damaged and doesn't look good, its probably best to have a dial redone. Doing so will increase its beauty and enjoyment to the owner, and besides once value is diminished by a very poor condition dial redialing isn't going to do much more in terms of reducing value. In addition, if the dial was in bad shape, improving its looks even if the value doesn't increase could create a larger market of would be buyers if the watch were not a keeper. I value originality both with cars and watches, but not to the degree of crazy collectors who value original rust, or dials with lots of water damage and call that patina.

As for the rare exception of people profiting from their watches. It always depends on the watches and what they bought. One relative with a small collection could sell 3 pieces purchased in the last 10-15 years, and I estimate conservatively that he would walk away with a net profit of $50,000. He can't retire on that, but that's not too shabby. I always tell people buy watches you really love. If it doesn't go up in value, you won't be disappointed because you still have a watch you love, and if it does go up in value its an added bonus.

This clock, the Duc D'Orléans Breguet Sympathique, was a complete mess, inside and out before it was painstakingly refurbished. Its value doesn't seem to have been affected as its auction price suggests. But more importantly, it now has the appearance that the maker had intended when he created the piece. I'm sure that Abraham-Louis Breguet was sad to see his creation in such a dilapidated state and smiled upon seeing its wonderful restoration.

Lovely, but not a clock that was in relatively good shape and had a redial by the local watchmaker. This is a very rare clock that was completely restored by "Experts." As another poster stated there is a big difference between the quality of most redials and having the manufacturer (or say AP's restoration department, which I understand will restore any AP or other significant watches/clocks) completely restore a clock/watch.

This is also a very rare important piece for Breguet. You wouldn't have the same results in terms of appeal or increasing the value of a watch , if you merely redialed a more common Patek Calatrava, Rolex DJ, or Omega Constellation.

 

[Dino944]

I've heard both words used to mean the same thing in the watch world. The people who worked on the Breguet used both, as did the clock's owner. And I used both in my post.

From Patek Philippe: "Please note that the refurbishing of the case and bracelet is not included in the maintenance, but left for your personal preference."

A restoration is far more extensive and complete. Refurbish is a more general term, it could be improving condition and it might only be done to part of an item. To restore is to bring an entire item to the condition it was in when new.

In addition, the excerpt you took from the service section of Patek's site, references polishing the case and bracelet. So if you were to use "Refurbish" by that definition...then the Breguet clock only needed polishing?

Patek has a separate section dedicated to restoration of their watches and they do not use the term refurbish in it at all. In addition, AP only uses the terms restoration and conservation in their website. VC only discusses restoration.

 

[jhcam8]



Quote: Congrats on the recent acquisitions guys! I share the same sentiments with DLJr. Aquanaut really doesn't shine by itself. But damn it looks gorgeous on the wrist. Some watches looks great by themselves but undermining on the wrist. Here's my contribution for today. Attending a wedding lunch and a wedding dinner on the same day. Love how versatile the lange 1 is.

Thanks, Novelty. Can't go wrong with the Lange 1!

 

[jhcam8]



Been lurking heaps and have enjoyed the Nato strap bonanza and some of the lovely APs, ALs and Pateks on display.

Thought I'd better contribute and throw in a few Panerai's into the mix.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Looking good, gazman!

 

[SteveH35]

Patek 5960/1a

 

[bkotsko]

Patek 5960/1a

You're just showing off the new Q...