The StyleForum Working Hierarchical Suit Quality List (SFWHSQL!)

[nyarkies]



Also, if Tom Ford goes in the excellent category, shouldn't Zegna Couture be there as well, since I thought they were roughly the same suit.

Looking at the list, they are both there.

 

[levku]

Here is my hierarchy

Excellent
Cesare Attolini
Kiton


Crap
All other manufacturers

 

[TimelesStyle]



Looking at the list, they are both there.

I was referring to the list quoted a few posts up, and my point wasn't so much that both should be listed, but that they should be in the same category, since they were essentially the same suit.

 

[nyarkies]

I get what you're saying. I was looking at this list where they're both in the same category:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/140387/...l-suit-quality-list-sfwhsql/1275#post_7132899

 

[TimelesStyle]



Excellent [*****]

- Oxxford

- Brioni

- Cesare Attolini

- Caraceni

- Kiton

- Luciano Barbera Sartoriale

- Luigi Borrelli

- Sartoria Castangia

- St Andrews / Santandrea

• Old RLPL (now made by Caruso)

- La Vera Sartoria Napoletana

- Zegna Couture

• Tom Ford

- Sartoria Formosa







Very Good[****] (IE: Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category.)


- Battistoni

- D'Avenza

- Isaia

- Sartoria Partenopea

- Oxxford (1220)

- Belvest mainline

- Borrelli Luxury Vintage

- Canali Milano

- Corneliani Linea Sartoria

- Pal Zileri Sartoriale (I think there is another line higher than Sartoriale: The custom made one--IIRC "Abito Privato"--has excellent quality)

- Ravazzolo

- Sartoria Attolini Napoli

- Raffaelle Caruso Sartoria Parma

• Current RLPL

- Sartorio

- Stile Latino







Good[***] (IE: Quality is superior to most suits.)


- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece

- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece

- Brunello Cucinelli (very nice fabrics)

- Canali mainline

- Canali Exclusive (higher end fabrics than mainline)

- Cantarelli mainline

- Corneliani mainline

- Ermenegildo Zegna mainline

• Dunhill (more classical cut)
• Gucci (usually "fashion forward" - tread carefully)
• Yves Saint Laurent Rive Gauche (usually "fashion forward" - tread carefully)

- Faconnable Tailleur

- Martin Greenfield for Gilt, FSC

• House label on Gilt
• Freeman's Sporting Club

- Hickey Freeman mainline

- Kei by Canali (full canvas, but very soft)

- Pal Zileri mainline

- Paul Smith mainline (fully canvassed)

- Raffaelle Caruso mainline

• RLBL
• Ma.Co.
• Adriano and Sons (defunct, but some inventory floating)

- Samuelsohn

• Paul Stuart

- J. Press Pressidential (full canvas)

- Scuderi

- Ring Jacket







Satisfactory [**] (IE: The "average" brands. Quality is acceptable.)


- Belvest Silver Label (half canvassed line)

- Brooks Brothers 1818 (half canvassed)

- Burberry Prorsum

- Cantarelli Tailor

- Charles Tyrwhitt

- CC Corneliani (half canvassed)

• Polo Ralph Lauren (half canvassed; excellent fabrics on par with Corneliani mainline, if not better; also seems to be better quality sewing and linings than CC Corneliani)

- Coppley (half canvassed)

- Etro (if you can find the half canvas ones; some fused)

- Boglioli (if you can find the half canvas ones; some fused)

- Giorgio Armani (Black Label)[/U] (alot of their pieces are fused)

- H. Freemann

- Hackett (half canvassed)

- Hugo Boss Selection[/U] half canvassed and some premium fabrics

- Hickey Freeman LTD (half canvassed)

- J. Press Presstige (half canvassed)

- Lardini (half canvassed)

- L.B.M. 1911

- Marks and Spencer (any of their "Pure Wool" collection)

- Paul Smith London (half canvassed)

- Piombo

- Suit Supply (half canvassed)

- Valentino (half canvassed)

- Prada (half canvassed)

- Peter Millar

- Tagliatore







Mediocre[*] (Suits that are mediocre.)

- Tombolini (fused, but excellent fabrics and Neapolitan styling - "poor man's Isaia")

- J Crew Ludlow (fused)

- Armani Exchange

- Calvin Klein Collection (now fused)

- Dolce & Gabbana

- J. Press mainline (fused; decent fabrics)

- hickey (spelled with a lowercase "h" - now fused and made in China)

- Hugo Boss (fused)

- Joseph Abboud

- Pal Zileri Lab

- Versace Collection

- Z Zegna

- Armani Collezioni (fused)

Are you sure that Belvest Silver is half canvassed? I thought it was full, just machine made. Regardless, the fabrics would put them in a higher category than listed here. Also, according to the guys at the RL store in Chicago, RLPL is back to being made by St. Andrews as of late.

 

[MDeKelver]

Belvest Silver: Half Canvassed, fused.

RLPL 'Custom Fit': Definitely not Caruso, St. Andrews (I was at the Chicago RL store also).

 

[edwardthefirst]

I have a couple of thoughts on the list...

First: Why is Martin Greenfield so low? From what I have observed and been told by MG sales reps, they are almost completely handmade. They also have handmade buttonholes and other hand finishing. They do make for Ovadia & Sons, and made for Brooks Golden Fleece until just a few years ago when BB switched GF production over the their Southwick plant. Though their cuts aren't always particularly inspiring, I would rate Martin Greenfield (and BBGF) as Very Good [****], based solely on the quality of the construction.

Second: Battistoni is made by Sartoria Castangia. I would place both in the Very Good [****] section. Castangia is currently placed in Excellent [*****]. From what I've seen, the older stuff is quite nicely made and finished, hand attached collars and handmade buttonholes, etc. I was at Barneys last week though looking at some of Battistoni's newest pieces, and they just didn't seem as nice. Buttonholes are no longer handmade, canvas seemed a little stiffer, etc... Still lovely fabrics though.

Third: A few posts back someone mentioned that Belvest and Isaia were the same quality. I do not really agree. Mainline Isaia at least has much nicer finishing than Belvest. Again, I go back to hand attached collars and hand made buttonholes. These things obviously do not determine the ultimate quality of the item, but I think that 99 times out of 100 they are an excellent indicator and should be considered. I have two fantastic suits by Belvest, and the quality does seem a bit nicer than Canali or Zegna. The shoulders and canvas are a little softer, the lapels have a much nicer roll, the fabrics are excellent. Still machine made buttonholes, machine attached lining, etc. I cannot really find any evidence of them ACTUALLY being nicer than Zegna or Canali, but they certainly feel like it. Isaia on the other hand, is usually superlative in every aspect, with lovely hand finishing. It gets more confusing with the knowledge that Isaia has one or two lines of (slightly) lesser quality, that do not have hand finishing. You'll see jackets made by this (slightly) lower line of Isaia made for Paul Stuart, Barneys New York, Saks Fifth Avenue, and some other more obscure brands.

Fourth: Most Faconnable has historically been produced by Cantarelli to fully canvassed specifications. Recently however, they've started having some things made in China and eastern Europe that are pretty poor quality. Fused, etc. So if buying tailored clothing from Faconnable, be careful and check for the Canterelli stuff.

Fifth: I would like to add Chester Barrie to the list. Unfortunately however, I cannot comment as to their current quality. I own several older pieces by them, and the quality is excellent. Fully canvassed, hand made buttonholes, lots of hand padding in the lapels and chest, and lovely Savile Row (Huntsman) styling. Strong shoulders, high armhole, clean chest, slightly flared skirt. I would say a solid Very Good [****]. However, I have a lurking suspicion that their quality level has declined in recent years. They used to produce tailored clothing for Turnbull & Asser, but I'm unsure if they still do. I recently handled several pieces of T&A tailored wear at Bloomingdales and was VERY disturbed by the drop in quality. Advertised as being made in England, they were at best half canvassed if not fused, felt incredibly stiff in the worst possible way (NOT Savile Row), and had very poor machine finished collars and buttonholes. The styling was still nice, classic Row, and the fabrics were decent, but aside from that I was singularly unimpressed. I'm not sure if it's still made by Chester Barrie, but if it is then CB has fallen far indeed. I would be very interested in hearing opinions of anyone who has had experience with recent CB pieces. Oh, and I would add the CB diffusion line, "Chester" to the Poor [*] section. Fused and made in China.

Cheers.

 

[TimelesStyle]



I have a couple of thoughts on the list... 

First: Why is Martin Greenfield so low? From what I have observed and been told by MG sales reps, they are almost completely handmade. They also have handmade buttonholes and other hand finishing. They do make for Ovadia & Sons, and made for Brooks Golden Fleece until just a few years ago when BB switched GF production over the their Southwick plant. Though their cuts aren't always particularly inspiring, I would rate Martin Greenfield (and BBGF) as Very Good [****], based solely on the quality of the construction. 

Second: Battistoni is made by Sartoria Castangia. I would place both in the Very Good [****] section. Castangia is currently placed in Excellent [*****]. From what I've seen, the older stuff is quite nicely made and finished, hand attached collars and handmade buttonholes, etc. I was at Barneys last week though looking at some of Battistoni's newest pieces, and they just didn't seem as nice. Buttonholes are no longer handmade, canvas seemed a little stiffer, etc... Still lovely fabrics though.

Third: A few posts back someone mentioned that Belvest and Isaia were the same quality. I do not really agree. Mainline Isaia at least has much nicer finishing than Belvest. Again, I go back to hand attached collars and hand made buttonholes. These things obviously do not determine the ultimate quality of the item, but I think that 99 times out of 100 they are an excellent indicator and should be considered. I have two fantastic suits by Belvest, and the quality does seem a bit nicer than Canali or Zegna. The shoulders and canvas are a little softer, the lapels have a much nicer roll, the fabrics are excellent. Still machine made buttonholes, machine attached lining, etc. I cannot really find any evidence of them ACTUALLY being nicer than Zegna or Canali, but they certainly feel like it. Isaia on the other hand, is usually superlative in every aspect, with lovely hand finishing. It gets more confusing with the knowledge that Isaia has one or two lines of (slightly) lesser quality, that do not have hand finishing. You'll see jackets made by this (slightly) lower line of Isaia made for Paul Stuart, Barneys New York, Saks Fifth Avenue, and some other more obscure brands. 

Fourth: Most Faconnable has historically been produced by Cantarelli to fully canvassed specifications. Recently however, they've started having some things made in China and eastern Europe that are pretty poor quality. Fused, etc. So if buying tailored clothing from Faconnable, be careful and check for the Canterelli stuff. 

Fifth: I would like to add Chester Barrie to the list. Unfortunately however, I cannot comment as to their current quality. I own several older pieces by them, and the quality is excellent. Fully canvassed, hand made buttonholes, lots of hand padding in the lapels and chest, and lovely Savile Row (Huntsman) styling. Strong shoulders, high armhole, clean chest, slightly flared skirt. I would say a solid Very Good [****]. However, I have a lurking suspicion that their quality level has declined in recent years. They used to produce tailored clothing for Turnbull & Asser, but I'm unsure if they still do. I recently handled several pieces of T&A tailored wear at Bloomingdales and was VERY disturbed by the drop in quality. Advertised as being made in England, they were at best half canvassed if not fused, felt incredibly stiff in the worst possible way (NOT Savile Row), and had very poor machine finished collars and buttonholes. The styling was still nice, classic Row, and the fabrics were decent, but aside from that I was singularly unimpressed. I'm not sure if it's still made by Chester Barrie, but if it is then CB has fallen far indeed. I would be very interested in hearing opinions of anyone who has had experience with recent CB pieces. Oh, and I would add the CB diffusion line, "Chester" to the Poor [*] section. Fused and made in China.

Cheers.

First, regarding Martin Greenfield, I think the person who listed it was looking specifically at the suits they make for Gilt and sell as OTR (since my understanding is you can only get the MG label as MTM otherwise). I don't Imagine those are made mostly by hand and, while nicer than others retailing for the same, probably aren't in that "very good" category.

Second, regarding Belvest vs. Isaia, perhaps you are correct. My experience with the two was when picking a wedding suit and talking about the finer points of the shop's different lines with the sales guy (who knew the brands very well). The impression I got was that the two were very comparable in terms of material and workmanship, which was also reflected in the price. The consensus was that both bested Zegna by more than the $4-500 price difference in terms of quality, but were very similar to each other in the $3-3,500 realm (for RTW; more for MTM). Ultimately, I went with Belvest on the basis of fit; the button stance on Isaia was way too high for my liking.

 

[edwardthefirst]

First, regarding Martin Greenfield, I think the person who listed it was looking specifically at the suits they make for Gilt and sell as OTR (since my understanding is you can only get the MG label as MTM otherwise). I don't Imagine those are made mostly by hand and, while nicer than others retailing for the same, probably aren't in that "very good" category.

Second, regarding Belvest vs. Isaia, perhaps you are correct. My experience with the two was when picking a wedding suit and talking about the finer points of the shop's different lines with the sales guy (who knew the brands very well). The impression I got was that the two were very comparable in terms of material and workmanship, which was also reflected in the price. The consensus was that both bested Zegna by more than the $4-500 price difference in terms of quality, but were very similar to each other in the $3-3,500 realm (for RTW; more for MTM). Ultimately, I went with Belvest on the basis of fit; the button stance on Isaia was way too high for my liking.

You are probably correct, sir. I have not had quite as much experience with MG as I would have liked, only pieces they have made for BBGF, DKNY (old), Khakis of Carmel house brand, and a few old Martin Greenfield branded items. All of those were of excellent quality. I have had no first hand experience with Ovadia & Sons, Gilt, or I believe it's Band of Outsiders or another fashion-y brand that they also make for. These could be much lower quality.

I would say you are correct as well. Speaking rater broadly, the two are overall very comparable. I was totally nitpicking for the sake of this thread haha, and I apologize for coming across so bluntly. I would also agree that they both totally best Zegna. TBH, I'm not surprised to hear that you went with Belvest. I like their cut usually much more than Isaia, and agree again on the buttoning point. I just wish they had slightly nicer finishing.

Cheers.

 

[TimelesStyle]



I would say you are correct as well. Speaking rater broadly, the two are overall very comparable. I was totally nitpicking for the sake of this thread haha, and I apologize for coming across so bluntly. I would also agree that they both totally best Zegna. TBH, I'm not surprised to hear that you went with Belvest. I like their cut usually much more than Isaia, and agree again on the buttoning point. I just wish they had slightly nicer finishing. 

Cheers.

Some of Belvest's fabrics can be a bit delicate, too. I know that after all of the molestation... I mean, hugs, I had to endure during my wedding the back of the shoulders had a bunch of tiny pulls, which fortunately the retailer's tailor was able to get out. I think Isaia has also changed its cuts a bit; my dad used to love their suits, but when he went to get one for my wedding he ended up with Belvest as well because he said that the Isaia just didn't fit right.

I should add that when it comes to high end OTR suits, Belvest is also probably the best cut for a truly athletically built person; it's the only suit of its caliber I know of which comes with an eight inch drop. I actually had to base the trouser for mine on one size up to get enough quad room. As already discussed, the buttoning stance also helps in this regard, as someone with a broader chest/back will look silly with a super high button. In spite of being called Neapolitan I feel that Belvest is almost more English in its cuts.

My issue with the two being in different categories for the purpose of this thread had more to do with the fact that I think they are more similar to each other than to others in their respective categories. I think Belvest was listed with the likes of Zegna and Caruso in one list, which are great suits, but I have a Belvest MTM and a bunch of RLBL OTR in my closet and there just isn't much comparison.

 

[CTLION]

I won't even attempt to make a list...I will say this: I bought my first Castangia suit in 2013 and I have tried other high end suit makers and none of them compare to the fit and look of my. Castangia suits. I also know the US importer very well so I get to see the items that are going to NY or LA before they hit the stores.

 

[jeffd]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

^^^ Is Thom Browne still Oxxford-made? I thought they moved down to a cheaper alternative, which would lead me to believe they shouldn't be ranked in the highest tier. Also, I thought Jil Sander was made by Attolini--maybe it should be swapped into TB's spot.

Yeah they switched but I'm not sure the Japan-made new production will be inferior, we'll see. It's not like his current offerings pale compared to Isaia or Brioni and they are clearly above black fleece. -If Hermès is stillmade by Belvest we could put them in the same category. -Dior homme was pretty good, going from beyond anything on that list (couture embroidery) to at least "good". -Lanvin fabrics are often custom and IMHO, more interesting than those from other brands. -Jil Sander: I'm talking about the RTW "tailor made" line not MtM, not sure who makes it anymore. Mine looks good and is well made but it's a fine example of Teutonic design minimalism (no sleeve buttons, discrete stitching, etc).
It's difficult to place many of the fashion house brands on this list. I recently bought a Jil Sander RTW Tailor Made off of B&S which is clearly fused, no handwork, etc, and the fabric merely so-so. Worth the $200 I paid and nothing more. It's definitely hit and miss with these labels.

 

[reidd]



I won't even attempt to make a list...I will say this: I bought my first Castangia suit in 2013 and I have tried other high end suit makers and none of them compare to the fit and look of my. Castangia suits. I also know the US importer very well so I get to see the items that are going to NY or LA before they hit the stores.

Yes. Castangia must be in the top tier. It is consistently better than most Kiton and Attolini I have seen.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I read from a member here that Borrelli's suit making has been contracted out to someone else and they're not the same as they were before 2008. Can anyone comment on the quality of Borrelli's current suits? Are they still top tier?

 

[Ich_Dien]



I read from a member here that Borrelli's suit making has been contracted out to someone else and they're not the same as they were before 2008. Can anyone comment on the quality of Borrelli's current suits? Are they still top tier?

Still very very good RTW. Less handwork these days though.