The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

[archibaldleach]

I always found the idea that one must earn their dues when it comes to dressing fantastically foolish. Still do. Andy has far more experience than I do in dressing, particularly with black tie, yet, if we were to both wear dove grey dinner jackets, we'd both look as though we were wearing dove grey jackets. That experience should somehow change a very basic reality makes not even one iota of sense to me.

If you have an event where norms are mandated, of course you should endeavor to abide them. In literally every other scenario, you should do whatever you please, rules and experience be damned.

Maybe I'm misreading the discussion, but I don't think people are claiming that one must earn one's dues before wearing anything. I think it's more that if you have more experience with clothes, understand the rules, understand the reasoning behind the rules, and know why you want to wear something, you're in a better position to strategically break rules and norms in appropriate situations.

Experience lets someone like Andy think, "A dove grey jacket would be fun to wear as a change of pace from my cream dinner jacket when having dinner with my wife." Someone without experience might see him in that jacket and think, "I should wear that to this conservative black-tie event." Two people in the same setting / context wearing the same thing aren't going to look different because of experience (except maybe the person more used to the clothes might look a bit more comfortable), as you say two guys wearing dove grey dinner jackets are going to be two guys wearing dove grey dinner jackets. But the guy with experience isn't going to wear something a bit more fanciful to a more formal / solemn event.

 

[Andy57]

Andy has far more experience than I do in dressing, particularly with black tie, yet, if we were to both wear dove grey dinner jackets, we'd both look as though we were wearing dove grey jackets.

I was gonna post a "wax on, wax off' meme, but my wife wouldn't let me. But you're quite right.

 

[Andy57]

Purely for my curiosity can someone please elaborate on this ‘**** in the side of the bib’.

A **** on the left side the bib makes it vastly easier to attach the studs to a marcella front shirt. You put studs on a shirt from the front, which makes it difficult to attach the stud on the inner side of the shirt. Being able to get one's hand inside and behind the shirt front makes it so much easier.

 

[AdductorMagnus]

I have that on my 20's starched front shirt. Can't get my hand through, though...

 

[ababac]

I have the vaguest most distant memory of seeing one white tie shirt up close in my life decades ago. It may have been part of my Dad’s RAF officer’s mess kit. I think there was a vertical tab with a button hole on the shirt front that somehow attached to the waistcoat or trouser front in order to keep the shirt front from ballooning out. Did I just make that up or does anyone know what I’m on about?

you didn't make it up, it is a thing that exists. i have a white tie shirt that has the tab (and side ****, and a loop at the back to keep the bow tie in place when wearing a wing collar). the suit i have just had commissioned will have a corresponding button.

this post has all the details you'd need.

this is the shirt i have.

 

[Andy57]

you didn't make it up, it is a thing that exists. i have a white tie shirt that has the tab (and side ****, and a loop at the back to keep the bow tie in place when wearing a wing collar). the suit i have just had commissioned will have a corresponding button.

this post has all the details you'd need.

this is the shirt i have.

The loop at the back of the neck is to keep the waistcoat in place, is it not? The tie would be higher than the yoke of the shirt, around the stiff collar.

 

[ababac]

The loop at the back of the neck is to keep the waistcoat in place, is it not? The tie would be higher than the yoke of the shirt, around the stiff collar.

you are quite right. i was confusing it with the attached wing collar shirt i returned in favour of that one (on your excellent advice).

 

[Thin White Duke]

you didn't make it up, it is a thing that exists. i have a white tie shirt that has the tab (and side ****, and a loop at the back to keep the bow tie in place when wearing a wing collar). the suit i have just had commissioned will have a corresponding button.

this post has all the details you'd need.

this is the shirt i have.

Interesting and enlightening stuff.

I’m still a bit puzzled by the **** on the side. I have a Marcella shirt that takes studs. I simply fix the studs to the right hand side of the shirt first then fasten them the same as if they were buttons.

I’m glad I don’t have the occasion to wear white tie. I’m not sure it would be comfortable with all the beyond the scenes fastenings, including braces and the two buckles at the back of the waistcoat along with shirt tab, boiled shirt front etc.

Interesting that I got a Marcella shirt (turn down collar) thinking it looked great and that the pique weave of the bib was the less formal option. After all that’s similar to the weave of a polo shirt!! More recently I learned that the pique weave is a holdover from the transition from white tie and it’s specific purpose is to be more dense than the surrounding shirt to hold more starch for increased stiffness. Hence the need to keep the front strapped down.

 

[covskin]

Don't forget the cartoon staple of the toff fighting with his rolled-up shirt front.

 

[Andy57]

Interesting and enlightening stuff.

I’m still a bit puzzled by the **** on the side. I have a Marcella shirt that takes studs. I simply fix the studs to the right hand side of the shirt first then fasten them the same as if they were buttons.

A lot of studs won't work the same as buttons. They're either too big or a combination of the stiffness (or thickness, perhaps) of the shirt front make it difficult to attach the studs the way you describe without mangling the bib, which then defeats the purpose of a nice, stiff shirt front.

So, you attach the studs to the left side of the shirt first, then bring the spring bar through the right side from the back. Once you can access the shirt front from behind, it's simple.

 

[JJ Katz]

I think Andy57 was pondering a 'dove-grey' DJ? I recall pictures somewhere (I think the "I am Dandy" blog) showing the uber-elegant Dr Churchwell wearing something along those lines which looked spectacular.

 

[Faux Brummell]

I had perceived that jacket as light blue, but I think you’re right, it’s closer to dove grey.

I think Andy57 was pondering a 'dove-grey' DJ? I recall pictures somewhere (I think the "I am Dandy" blog) showing the uber-elegant Dr Churchwell wearing something along those lines which looked spectacular.

 

[palk]

@Faux Brummell beat me to it.

 

[Oshare]

Don't forget the cartoon staple of the toff fighting with his rolled-up shirt front.

I finally understand what this is about.

 

[AdductorMagnus]

View attachment 999445

I finally understand what this is about.

I'm actually contemplating having a bib such as that made. Starching would certainly be easier. So far my experiments with achieving sufficient stiffness on the shirt front without having the shirt body also stand up on its own have not been particularly successful.

I'm thinking loops on the sides for braces, and some contraptions for attaching to the waistcoat and trouser top button.