The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[j ingevaldsson]

Would this rather be an indictment of the entire bespoke industry? Contrary to their marketing and the high prices, it seems the chance of getting a great fit on the first commission is at best a 50-50 proposition. It's quite a shame most first-time buyers of bespoke shoes are not aware of this, and they get fleeced

Quite a few possibilities, or a combination thereof, for why bespoke failure rates appear so high; none of which is flattering for the industry:

1. Just the nature of making shoes, and little to do with individual talent: nailing the fit on the first commission is a crapshoot. But still, no bespoke business I'm aware of is open and honest with their clients about this fact
2. Some (most?) shoemakers are terrible at gauging fit, and to the extent they advertise themselves as best of the best, they are charlatans
3. Some businesses are unscrupulous, and will not stand behind their product or craftsmanship. They are little better than fly-by-night operations which resort to fraud

How did you draw those conclusions from what I wrote? It's so totally off.

A good first bespoke shoe should basically always be better than all RTW, MTO or even MTM shoes, and to my experience that is also the case (of course, always exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions). The OP's first delivery was not good, and since he had three pairs made at once, there's a lot more hassle to reach that point I mentioned first here, than if it was only one pair. That is why one should only order one pair for the first. The OP's maker hasn't defined their work as finished, since the customer isn't happy yet, and that's sort of is my point, there is no finished first pair done there yet (but the fact that the first pair now is three pairs mess it up a lot. But makers, even if they probably should, they don't say no to a customer who want to order more stuff, which one can understand, especially since the situation here with this big fit issues on a finished pair isn't common so they don't count on that).

But "a perfect fit" is rarely achieved on a first pair, for so many reasons, many of them being down to the customer not knowing what a perfect fit is, one being that some things don't appear until after good amount of wear, and so on. That doesn't mean that a finished first bespoke pair is an excellent product, well-worth it's price tag, in my opinion (and likely most others, otherwise we wouldn't see so many people continue to order bespoke shoes, it would've been a dead business a long time ago).

And pound for pound I would take the detailed negative review over a generic positive review, because the negative side is likely more objective, better reasoned, and more attuned to minutiae

Can you please define why this would be accurate, what fact do you base this on, that you can trust a negative review more than a positive review?

All research I know off would indicate the opposite, that those with a negative experience to a higher degree make their voices heard and exaggerate the negative experience, and that those with a positive do less of this. Not least when it comes to situations where the expectation is something positive, as an order of a bespoke shoe certainly would be.

 

[DorianGreen]

I'm pretty sure I have no idea what perfect fit is since I'm Mr. RTW...

Meant to be hilarious, but, seriously speaking, if you are an "easy" fit, why even bother with bespoke?
Also valid for clothes, of course. Certainly, going bespoke will allow you an incredible choice in style, leather, construction and any sort of details, but one has to ask himself if it's worth the horrendous extra charge, the dilated times and the risks connected.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Meant to be hilarious, but, seriously speaking, if you are an "easy" fit, why even bother with bespoke?
Also valid for clothes, of course. Certainly, going bespoke will allow you an incredible choice in style, leather, construction and any sort of details, but one has to ask himself if it's worth the horrendous extra charge, the dilated times and the risks connected.

The more standard ones feet are, the less need for bespoke there is, of course. Especially if it's full handmade RTW with a last that suit you very well, and if they are made with proper leather stiffeners, ideally long such, some feet can come very long with RTW. Most likely not all the way, but close.

I'm very annoyed when people state things like "horrendous extra charge" and things like that though, when those who make least money on their work in the shoe business generally is the bespoke shoemakers. If you don't understand what goes in to making bespoke shoes, don't comment on it. You are fully free to stay away from it, but don't spread ill-informed opinions that have little connection with the reality.

Of course, there are bad bespoke shoemakers out there, and there are things that go wrong also for good bespoke shoemakers. It's the same with every type of industry out there. But I don't see people here state that for example "RTW welted shoes is bullshit one should never spend that amount of money on this" just because there's lousy RTW welted shoes around, or because good RTW makers occasionally mess up their shoes.

 

[clee1982]

If you’re easy to fit other than aesthetic I agree don’t bother

Personally I’m relative easy fit in suit, I know there are issues (left shoulder is more forward biased, sleeve pitch etc) but overall if you just look at it not very obvious. So for clothe I buy bespoke purely for aesthetic, or things I can’t get from RTW easily, and on the none perfect fit, I just live with it, and call it good enough (though for the few bespoke I have I can tell as far as “look” goes not a lot improvement but to overall mobility without sacrificing the look, definitely significant improvement)

For shoes i know my right instep is higher overall slightly longer while left is slightly wider. If you ask me to guess everything is probably +-.25, but that means I can’t wear certain English maker and never truly get a good fit on loafer. However since I don’t wear loafer so not really a problem, so would I get a lot improvement from bespoke on shoes I would say yes (though I still don’t know what’s perfect I only know what’s not perfect from my RTW experience)

 

[DorianGreen]

The more standard ones feet are, the less need for bespoke there is, of course. Especially if it's full handmade RTW with a last that suit you very well, and if they are made with proper leather stiffeners, ideally long such, some feet can come very long with RTW. Most likely not all the way, but close.

I'm very annoyed when people state things like "horrendous extra charge" and things like that though, when those who make least money on their work in the shoe business generally is the bespoke shoemakers. If you don't understand what goes in to making bespoke shoes, don't comment on it. You are fully free to stay away from it, but don't spread ill-informed opinions that have little connection with the reality.

Sorry, having hurt your sensibility. I don't want to spread any misinformation. It's undeniable though that prices for bespoke are considerably higher than RTW and MTO. And probably not all people here have the wealth necessary to go that way. Just my personal point, not meant to be the truth or to teach anybody.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Sorry, having hurt your sensibility. I don't want to spread any misinformation. It's undeniable though that prices for bespoke are considerably higher than RTW and MTO. And probably not all people here have the wealth necessary to go that way. Just my personal point, not meant to be the truth or to teach anybody.

Of course they are expensive, because the amount of time that goes into them is very high, plus materials are higher cost (a relatively small amount of the price for bespoke though). They are expensive, but it's not the same thing as "horrendous extra charge". Totally understand that they cost too much for most people to acquire, and that some who do have the money might not think it's worth it, but that doesn't make that statement more right for that.

Take the time to read the 5 part article series following the process of making a pair of Gaziano & Girling bespoke shoes, found on my blog here, and I hope you and others with this view will understand why they cost the high amounts they do.

Worth noting is that also brands like John Lobb Paris and Berluti, who offers some of the most expensive bespoke shoes in the world, make very little money on this business. They just keep it rolling since it's status, and an appreciated product by many of their customers, but almost all the money they make on shoes is on the RTW side. That said, the real money isn't in shoes at all, it's a too fiddly products to make that one can't charge that high for. Other luxury products within their owners (Hermès and LVMH) portfolios generate way more profit, so I'm just glad they keep their men's shoe sections alive since they bring a lot of important positive parts to the businesses that I care for.

 

[DorianGreen]

Of course they are expensive, because the amount of time that goes into them is very high, plus materials are higher cost (a relatively small amount of the price for bespoke though). They are expensive, but it's not the same thing as "horrendous extra charge".

Take the time to read the 5 part article series following the process of making a pair of Gaziano & Girling bespoke shoes, found on my blog here, and I hope you and others with this view will understand why they cost the high amounts they do.

Worth noting is that also brands like John Lobb Paris and Berluti, who offers some of the most expensive bespoke shoes in the world, make very little money on this business. They just keep it rolling since it's status, and an appreciated product by many of their customers, but almost all the money they make on shoes is on the RTW side. That said, the real money isn't in shoes at all, it's a too fiddly products to make that one can't charge that high for. Other luxury products within their owners (Hermès and LVMH) portfolios generate way more profit, so I'm just glad they keep their men's shoe sections alive since they bring a lot of important positive parts to the businesses that I care for.

I honestly think you're misunderstanding me. I'm well aware of the facts you're talking about. I acknowledge and admire the high skills and craftsmanship behind a bespoke pair of shoes, and I don't (didn't) say that the prices are not justified.
My remark is that if you have easy fit feets, you could well prefer to buy ready-to-wear or made-to-order, especially if you already know that some last works well for you. This is also my approach, as unfortunately I'm not rich enough to go the bespoke route.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I honestly think you're misunderstanding me. I'm well aware of the facts you're talking about. I acknowledge and admire the high skills and craftsmanship behind a bespoke pair of shoes, and I don't (didn't) say that the prices are not justified.
My remark is that if you have easy fit feets, you could well prefer to buy ready-to-wear or made-to-order, especially if you already know that some last works well for you. This is also my approach, as unfortunally I'm not rich enough to go the bespoke route.

I don't think that "the horrendous extra charge, the dilated times and the risks connected" is hard to misunderstand, but if that wasn't what you meant, maybe don't write it

 

[DorianGreen]

I don't think that "the horrendous extra charge, the dilated times and the risks connected" is hard to misunderstand, but if that wasn't what you meant, maybe don't write it

What I wrote I also meant. Horrendous may sound negative but doesn't mean unjustified, the waiting time is very long and the risk of getting a less than perfect result is real.

 

[clee1982]

I can understand both sentiment, it is expensive but then when I look at how much some of Japanese guy charge (not the top everyone know guy) and the suppose number of pair they make my guess they are just average middle class salary too.

Doesn’t make it easy to swallow the payment but they’re definitely not make a killing (not most of them)

 

[JohnMRobie]

I think a big part of the problem is the marketing around getting a "perfect fit" when most customers never had a "perfect fit" shoe on top of their actual preference of how they like their shoes to fit.

When the shoes don't fit and the customer spent a whole bunch of money on uncomfortable shoes, they feel like a sucker and keep quiet. The makers I've dealt with are willing to remake/redo the shoes. They want happy customers that will return for future orders.

Beyond the idea of perfect fit the preference part I think would play a pretty big part. Even more than tailoring there’s what technically fits, what the maker thinks a perfect fit should be and what the customer thinks a perfect fit should be. You’re working with multiple different answers to the same question and multiple different ways to get to that answer.

 

[epsilon22]

I can understand both sentiment, it is expensive but then when I look at how much some of Japanese guy charge (not the top everyone know guy) and the suppose number of pair they make my guess they are just average middle class salary too.

Doesn’t make it easy to swallow the payment but they’re definitely not make a killing (not most of them)

I wonder how much the Japanese makers had to adjust their prices to account for the weakening yen. I swear Fukuda's bespoke was like 500K just 1-2 years ago, now it reaches 700K. But then at the current exchange rates, that's around USD4.7K, which is quite in line with some other independent makers like Templeman (GBP3.8K is around USD4.8K). Though the latter would charge the same price on trunk shows as they would if you were to visit them, so there's an additional convenience if you live where they visit.

 

[jonathanS]

I can understand both sentiment, it is expensive but then when I look at how much some of Japanese guy charge (not the top everyone know guy) and the suppose number of pair they make my guess they are just average middle class salary too.

Doesn’t make it easy to swallow the payment but they’re definitely not make a killing (not most of them)

Cost of living in Japan is 1/3 that of the us (I’m guessing London as well).

I think there was a shoemaker that has a 5 year waitlist who is outside of Tokyo.

I’m not sure the specific laws in Japan but I know a lot of more rural cities are giving people homes for free in exchange for living in them and those communities in an effort to attract people back to the community to prevent it from dying.

If they have fewer things to pay for they don’t need to charge as much to live comfortably.

 

[clee1982]

yea I'm aware, Japan's salary has always been low for developed countries as well its lower cost, though my general point is just it's not like the bespoke shoe guy are milking left/right

 

[Texasmade]

I think there was a shoemaker that has a 5 year waitlist who is outside of Tokyo.

You're referring to Eiji Murata of Main d'Or. His prices are seriously dirt cheap compared to most of the well known makers for the quality of work he puts into the shoes.