The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[jonathanS]

What are people's thoughts on a first pair of bespoke shoes? I think I read somewhere that the first bespoke should be a lace-up. While I enjoy a nice oxford, I rarely wear the ones I have (and I have a lot that I got because I liked the idea of wearing them).

Currently, my main shoes I wear are (off the top of my head):

Spoiler: Loafers

medium brown G&G Antibes (penny loafer with a twist),
Brown Suede G&G Monaco (penny loafer)
Tan G&G Monaco (Penny Loafer)
Light Blue Suede EG Duke (Penny Loafer)

Spoiler: Oxfords (far less often)

When I wear Oxfords (far less often), I wear:
Brown Museum Calf Anthony Cleverly Captoe Oxfords
Black Anthony Cleverly Captoe Oxfords
Burgundy G&G Westbury (Wholecut with stitching around the laces)
Tan G&G Austerity Brogues

I also have boots, that I rarely wear (even less than oxfords - Oxfords get worn 3-4x/season).

My plan was to use Ugolini for bespoke shoes, and, while I like the idea of an oxford, I worry I won't wear it often enough. So, I am thinking about getting a pair of tassel loafers as my first bespoke shoes. Perhaps a Medium brown, or burgundy pin-grain. I'm open to other's opinions. My RTW shoes do fit decently well, I'm not sure its worth it to start replacing them with bespoke yet, and I've been looking for a tassel loafer - I used to wear a pair of blake welted tassel loafers a lot, but I stylistically outgrew the construction of those loafers (I could get into a long post about the proportions of the blake welted loafers but this is already too long.

 

[marlinspike]

What are people's thoughts on a first pair of bespoke shoes? I think I read somewhere that the first bespoke should be a lace-up. While I enjoy a nice oxford, I rarely wear the ones I have (and I have a lot that I got because I liked the idea of wearing them).

Currently, my main shoes I wear are (off the top of my head):

Spoiler: Loafers

medium brown G&G Antibes (penny loafer with a twist),
Brown Suede G&G Monaco (penny loafer)
Tan G&G Monaco (Penny Loafer)
Light Blue Suede EG Duke (Penny Loafer)

Spoiler: Oxfords (far less often)

When I wear Oxfords (far less often), I wear:
Brown Museum Calf Anthony Cleverly Captoe Oxfords
Black Anthony Cleverly Captoe Oxfords
Burgundy G&G Westbury (Wholecut with stitching around the laces)
Tan G&G Austerity Brogues

I also have boots, that I rarely wear (even less than oxfords - Oxfords get worn 3-4x/season).

My plan was to use Ugolini for bespoke shoes, and, while I like the idea of an oxford, I worry I won't wear it often enough. So, I am thinking about getting a pair of tassel loafers as my first bespoke shoes. Perhaps a Medium brown, or burgundy pin-grain. I'm open to other's opinions. My RTW shoes do fit decently well, I'm not sure its worth it to start replacing them with bespoke yet, and I've been looking for a tassel loafer - I used to wear a pair of blake welted tassel loafers a lot, but I stylistically outgrew the construction of those loafers (I could get into a long post about the proportions of the blake welted loafers but this is already too long.

I would say you should order what you wear. As far as I know, the loafer will be a different last from a lace up anyway, so I don't think there's any point to doing lace ups first. If I remember correctly, Nicholas Templeman has said as much the same in this thread.

 

[willyto]

I thought that this would be a good time to update my Cleverley shoe saga and also to ask for advice from the community.

I waited until I had some sort of update, and this seems to be most appropriate. As some will recall, I ordered two pairs of shoes from GC: an alligator wholecut and some 1786 reindeer loafers. The alligator shoes came initially in poor shape, the leather was abysmal and the fit not taking into account my comments during fitting. GC remade the shoes, seemingly, with new leather, but it was still poor and the fit uncomfortable due to some design issues.

The 1786 loafers (Kempton) came first and had a small issue - they were too big. I brought them back to GC during a visit (during the pandemic) and only George Glasgow Jr was present. He took note of the requested changes. I was later told that the shoes would need to be remade and my feet remeasured because they were off by so much.

since then, and my less than friendly exchanges with George Jr, who is not a lastmaker, I attempted to schedule appointments when they had a trunk show in my area if Adam Law or a lastmaker would be present. For a long time, I was told that Adam could not travel due to Covid restrictions, even as other makers from other firms were traveling to the US.

at one point, I attempted to drop off my alligator shoes at the hotel where GC were staying, hoping that they would take back the shoes to redo the leather again, at a minimum, and fix the fit issues that I raised during the fitting session. GC mailed back the shoes to me from the hotel.

I have emailed GC five times for their recent trunk show, to an email account that is standard for their firm, and never received any response, even just about moving forward on the Kempton loafers. So, at this point, I have paid for everything. I have a pair of alligator shoes that have substandard leather and did not account for comments during fitting and not even a poorly fitting 1786 for which I have paid completely, and about which I can receive no response.

I’m wondering whether the community can help GC get in touch with me about the shoes, either to refund me at this point or give me a clear timeline about getting my shoes made properly, or working with a credit card company to dispute a charge made in 2019 and one in 2020 that covered the shoes that I do not have.

Did this go anywhere?

I hope you received a refund.

 

[TimothyF]

I will be going to my first appointment with a bespoke shoemaker tomorrow, and I have a question about what is underneath toe caps, heel counters, wingtips etc. Is it single layer of leather (i.e. the pieces are just sewn together at the seam/broguing), or double layer? For double layer I picture a PTB/wholecut, and then the caps/wingtips on top. Do experienced members know if the double layer option is feasible and can be requested? Thanks

 

[bengal-stripe]

That depends very much what school your shoemaker subscribes to. Basically all ready-to-wear shoes will not use a double layer underneath a toe cap or heel counter. English bespoke shoemakers will usually do have a double layer. Usually, but not always. If you only use a single layer, you can keep the toe somewhat slimmer. Many bespoke shoemakers outside the English tradition will be using a single layer. Just discuss it with your shoemaker and let her/him explain why s/he uses that particular method.

 

[TimothyF]

Thank you @bengal-stripe you are a fount of knowledge as always.

Two more questions spring to mind:

1. My local shoemaker, while he calls his services bespoke/custom, may have a different conception from this forum. He will take my measurements, and for no extra charge, will pick out the best last he has that fits me. Or for $600 extra he will “order” my last from Northampton. Are we agreed that the first option is not really bespoke, but rather some form of MTO/MTM?
   1. On second option I wonder what the possible consequences and downsides may be. On the phone the maker seemed somewhat cagey about it and how it works exactly. Would he just sent my foot measurements to a Northampton lastmaker, who somehow sight unseen can produce a last to my foot, fitting preferences, and aesthetics? And what if the last is found not to be 100% fitting, who does the adjustments? The only thing I know for certain is that I’ll own the lasts at the end of it lol. I know I’ll need to get clarifications from the maker, but has anyone dealt with this kind of arrangement before, and what came of it?
2. Personally I find most “stylish” shoes too long, pointy, and aggressive for my conservative. I’m not sure where exactly I heard it (or whether it’s even correct), but is the conventional ratio of vamp length to shoe length 1:3? For me the vamp begins where the lacing ends.

 

[bengal-stripe]

It's impossible to answer your questions with a straight yes or no. Where 'bespoke' ends and 'made-to-order' begins is a question of eternal debate. I would say, there is nothing wrong with using a commercial last and fitting it up to suit the needs of it's potential new owner. But fitting up means to do what is necessary, which might mean augmenting the last at certain places and reducing it at others. The last then should not go back into the general last stock but should be that customer's bespoke last in perpetuity (or at least an agreed number of years).

The last maker in Northampton (Springline, presumably) has various levels of service to fulfil the order of a last. You might order a stock last in a particular size and width, or you ask for digital alterations to that last, you can increase or decrease every parameter of that particular last. Alternatively they have a bespoke service where you supply the measurements or a scan and they use traditional hand skills make a last.

Bespoke Lasts

Bespoke lasts are the ultimate luxury – enabling a shoemaker to create your perfect pair of shoes. If you wish to supply your own measurements then please contact us to find out what information we require. Northampton's finest.

springline.net

The shoemaker who ordered the last will be responsible for a good fit. There should be a fitting of one kind or another to ensure the proper fit before the shoe gets finished completely. If there are minor problems, presumably he can solve those by himself. Bigger problems might need a total remake at Springline (and the subsequent haggle who messed up and has to pay the costs).

Questions of style and aesthetics (of last and uppers) have to be discussed with your shoemaker. Are the both of you on the same (or at least a similar) wave length? The vamp goes up to the vamp point (where the vamp goes over the facings, at least in an Oxford). Put the vamp point too low, the shoe might look somewhat pedestrian, put it too high, you might not be able to get into the shoe.

Go to your appointment later today, ask all the questions you have and if you are not happy, walk out without placing the order 'thinking about it'. The fact the guy is local should not necessarily be the reason you place an order.

 

[TimothyF]

It's impossible to answer your questions with a straight yes or no. Where 'bespoke' ends and 'made-to-order' begins is a question of eternal debate. I would say, there is nothing wrong with using a commercial last and fitting it up to suit the needs of it's potential new owner. But fitting up means to do what is necessary, which might mean augmenting the last at certain places and reducing it at others. The last then should not go back into the general last stock but should be that customer's bespoke last in perpetuity (or at least an agreed number of years).

The last maker in Northampton (Springline, presumably) has various levels of service to fulfil the order of a last. You might order a stock last in a particular size and width, or you ask for digital alterations to that last, you can increase or decrease every parameter of that particular last. Alternatively they have a bespoke service where you supply the measurements or a scan and they use traditional hand skills make a last.

Bespoke Lasts

Bespoke lasts are the ultimate luxury – enabling a shoemaker to create your perfect pair of shoes. If you wish to supply your own measurements then please contact us to find out what information we require. Northampton's finest.

springline.net

The shoemaker who ordered the last will be responsible for a good fit. There should be a fitting of one kind or another to ensure the proper fit before the shoe gets finished completely. If there are minor problems, presumably he can solve those by himself. Bigger problems might need a total remake at Springline (and the subsequent haggle who messed up and has to pay the costs).

Questions of style and aesthetics (of last and uppers) have to be discussed with your shoemaker. Are the both of you on the same (or at least a similar) wave length? The vamp goes up to the vamp point (where the vamp goes over the facings, at least in an Oxford). Put the vamp point too low, the shoe might look somewhat pedestrian, put it too high, you might not be able to get into the shoe.

Go to your appointment later today, ask all the questions you have and if you are not happy, walk out without placing the order 'thinking about it'. The fact the guy is local should not necessarily be the reason you place an order.

Thank you again Bengal, and I understand the only answers that matter come from the shoemaker. Just wanted to soak up as much industry knowledge before the meet.

I know typically a lace up shoe is recommended for first pair, and I’m thinking that derby is more forgiving than Oxford. But is there any leaning towards boots vs shoes for the first pair? Thanks

 

[Noblekostas]

I finished lasting my first suede bespoke shoes today, it was a pleasure. This is my only second pair so go easy on me.

 

[marlinspike]

I hope this won't be seen as too commercial, but since my podiatrist credits his shoes with saving my ability to walk, I feel as though I owe Alexandru Maftei a bit. In talking to him, it sounds like business never quite came back after covid. Now, I'm not one to oversell, and at least in pictures I will fully admit that people charging $3k+ are often putting out a finer finished product, but in the event anybody considering bespoke and stumbling upon this thread is like me, that is bespoke by need not by wealth, I just wanted to note I bet anybody who prepays for multiple pairs could probably get a deal (hopefully he doesn't mind my saying that), which when you consdier he is around $1k for bespoke, it's hard to beat. If Vienna is too hard to get to, I know he'll be meeting me in Frankfurt in November, which is an easier airport to get to. Not sponsored content or anything, I just was sad to hear business hadn't yet come back, and like I said I do feel I owe him since the podiatrist a) gave his shoes so much credit and b) told me I was on a fast track to being unable to walk without them.

 

[DWFII]

I know typically a lace up shoe is recommended for first pair, and I’m thinking that derby is more forgiving than Oxford. But is there any leaning towards boots vs shoes for the first pair? Thanks

It's kind of an odd rule of thumb. And kind of misleading, esp. if you are interested in the 'inner workings' and how it all comes together.

In the first place, if a fitter's model (trial shoe) is made, then any variance from a proper fit should be obvious to a well-schooled maker. That's not to say, however, that the customer can or will notice a fit problem...or even recognize a truly good fit

In the second place, a lace up shoe is instantly adjustable so that a shoe that is a little too big for the customer's foot can be tightened down over the instep, at least. And fundamentally the maker can call that "good" as long as the customer doesn't object...or the facings don't butt up against each other. If the shoe is too small for the foot, the reverse is true--too wide a gap between the facings can be passed off as long as the customer doesn't see anything wrong.

And in both cases, the shoes will...all other things being equal...be functional to one degree or another. For a while anyway.

So a lace up shoe as the first purchase is a pretty good approach...for the shoemaker. He can overlook a 'minor' misfit and vow to remedy the problem on the customer's next pair...if there ever is a next pair.

OTOH, if a customer orders a jodhpur or something like a pull-on boot where there is little or no immediate adjustment possible, the problem of a misfit is not so easy to ignore or wish away.

The whole point in all of this, both from the shoemaker's and the customer's POV, is to get a good fit first time out. But the secondary objective to create a last over which a next pair and a next pair can be made without interminable complaints, adjustments, and remakes.

Of course, if the truth be known, that's an ideal that may never be achieved if only because the customer's foot can change just from wearing a pair of shoes that fit (or don't fit) as well as from the vicissitudes of age.

 

[duffyfluffy123]

What are the opinions on shoes like these, especially shoemakers?


I noticed also a healthy trend on using more barefoot like shoes to have more anatomical footwear that doesn't change the shape of the foot, but they also look in my opinion quite ugly. Especially the cheaper ones which look like big ducks.
Is there a need to have shoes that look like this to be orthopedic or is it just like a kind of "style" of shoemaking?
Where's the happy medium where they look decent enough and are orthopedic?
When most people feet are wrongly molded due to foot shapes that curve to soon and too much inwards causing feet toes collapse into each other.
How much do usually shoemakers know about foot health compared to just being able to craft a good looking shoe?

 

[DWFII]

When we are born and when we are young, and when the foot is as close to its natural shape as it will ever be....the foot will be straight along the medial aspect--a straight-edge laid from the heel to the large toe will be touching flesh the entire length.

Wearing shoes that do not fit correctly and/or do not support the foot correctly will allow ligaments and tendons to stretch and joints to open up. This takes time naturally, and age and usage and trauma have an impact. But most feet that deviate from that first, most happy contour do so because of improperly fitting shoes.

Having said that, I am 76 years old and have been wearing narrow toes and high heels (1-1/2+") most of those years and yet my feet retain that straight configuration from heel to toe.

Most people do not know what a proper fit is. The impulse to wear soft bags on our feet is a good one...as far as it goes. Certainly better than wearing a suit of armour. Yet, esp. in today's world and for contemporary humans, protection against the elements and the harsh uneven surfaces is almost mandatory. And as we age and molly-coddle ourselves, the foot also wants support.

Over time, the foot benefits from a proper heel seat width; from a proper heel to ball length; from a bolster under the arch; from a shoe that contains the foot and moves smoothly with it. From a shoe that fits with no constriction and no excess or looseness.

In the end, much depends on the individual foot itself as to whether a 'barefoot' shoe is necessary. Or just another heavily rationalized fad like so many others that time has a way of making forgettable

But that's why there is 'bespoke'. Each foot is unique and has its own unique requirements.

And no, not all shoemakers pay close attention to the structure or needs of the foot. Like feet, each shoemaker is unique and has his own unique perspective.

But shoemaking is a very old Trade (as much as 10,000 years old). And some truths (consensus) have emerged and guide most who pursue shoemaking as a 'calling' rather than as a way to make money or draw attention to themselves. And, ultimately, I suspect that some attention to the shape and requirements of the foot is better than none.

Humans have an almost never-ending need to decorate their own bodies and to ornament their apparel. People are gonna do that regardless of the long term (or even short term) drawbacks.

If a person thinks that the barefoot shoe is attractive that's fine, but in my opinion, it is not necessary for the normal average, healthy foot given that the shoemaker respects the foot.And perhaps, more importantly... as a shoemaker...I don't see how such a shoe could properly support the foot much less meet the more nuanced measurements and requirements for a proper fit.

 

[marlinspike]

When we are born and when we are young, and when the foot is as close to its natural shape as it will ever be....the foot will be straight along the medial aspect--a straight-edge laid from the heel to the large toe will be touching flesh the entire length.

Wearing shoes that do not fit correctly and/or do not support the foot correctly will allow ligaments and tendons to stretch and joints to open up. This takes time naturally, and age and usage and trauma have an impact. But most feet that deviate from that first, most happy contour do so because of improperly fitting shoes.
...
Most people do not know what a proper fit is. The impulse to wear soft bags on our feet is a good one...as far as it goes.

I don't think you meant this, but just to be sure - you agree that the lack of an arch when we are born is because we are not fully formed, and only mean a straight edge would touch flesh the entire time on the ideal healthy foot if that straight edge also had height to it, or no?

I fall into the unusual category - a genetic deformity of the foot. I wore Aldens before I went bespoke, and while they caused me pain they gave me support. When I went bespoke, I thought the maker (we have some language barrier issues because my German is rudimentary) had made some error initially because I saw creasing that is typically associated with a wrong heel-ball length, but it was later taught to me by my podiatrist that the length is right and it was a consequence of adjustments made to keep me from pain. He was impressed that I didn't already need a surgery he described as debilitating in the best case outcome at my age (36). He went as far as to say a 14 year old with the same condition to the same extent had come in earlier in the week without the benefit of supportive footwear and was already at the point of being barely able to walk. So I am decidedly in the anti-barefoot shoe camp, if for no reason other than the rigid in the right places approach at worst causes no harm, whereas uninformed and well-meaning parents will ruin their child with the barefoot-like approach if their child is the wrong candidate.

 

[DWFII]

I don't think you meant this, but just to be sure - you agree that the lack of an arch when we are born is because we are not fully formed, and only mean a straight edge would touch flesh the entire time on the ideal healthy foot if that straight edge also had height to it, or no?

If the newly formed foot has no arch, the more likely that even a straight-edge laid flat, alongside, would touch flesh the whole length.

Look at your baby book. At one point in time, someone (a pediatrician? the delivering hospital?) would have 'printed' the foot. I dunno if they still do that. But a normal baby footprint will be near-as-nevermind straight along the entire medial aspect.

Shoemakers would use a 'size stick' (similar to a Ritz stick) which usually has some width to it, and that more or less bridges the concavity formed by the arch in an adult foot if it is laid on edge. But the point there is that shoemakers seldom see or deal with baby feet. On adult feet, we use a stick and a pedograph. And I suppose that's the image/concept I draw from.

And, on edit and just for clarity... we don't see a lot of adult feet that are straight along the medial aspect. 5%? I dunno. I just know that time and taxes take their toll.