Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope)

[t3hg0suazn]

Uhh how do you tie a tie if it's not full or half windsor?

 

[dieworkwear]



Uhh how do you tie a tie if it's not full or half windsor? 

Four-in-hand is considered a bit more tasteful. Small knot, little asymmetrical.

 

[cyc wid it]

I wish I could get the CM approved dimple correctly.

 

[tgaith77]

Double four in hand is the knot du jour

 

[the shah]

I have been after a cravat for some time, I decided that if it's a formal affair then why not go all out. I was at Bergdorf and asked for a selection of cravats, i was taken to a back room with drawers that probably hadn't seen the light of day in decades. it was a bizarre experience

I wish I could get the CM approved dimple correctly.

this is really depressing

 

[dieworkwear]



I have been after a cravat for some time, I decided that if it's a formal affair then why not go all out. I was at Bergdorf and asked for a selection of cravats, i was taken to a back room with drawers that probably hadn't seen the light of day in decades. it was a bizarre experience

One day, I'm going to start an ascot subscription service and call it Your Ascot Served.

 

[cyc wid it]

Better book the domain name now.

 

[basil rathbone]

I love this portrait.

 

[Noctone]



this is how i look when people start talking about the finer points of tie knots

 

[Caveat]

Noctone, I feel like you and I would get along famously.

 

[LA Guy]

The knot was supposedly inspired by the Duke of Windsor, who favored bigger knots late in life. He still wore a four-in-hand, but ordered ties made from thicker fabrics. Other men, who wore thinner fabrics, found new ways to tie their ties in a way that imitated the thicker knot (which is why we call it the Full Windsor/ Half Windsor)






The look wasn't carried over by the English aristocracy after Edward's death, and eventually just became something the lower classes wore (which, to be honest, is probably why we hate it).

In the US, most guys learned it through their service in the military during the '30s - '50s (when it was regulation wear), and then later taught it to their kids. I think it survives today because -- until very recently -- most guys learned their fashion rules from peers and members in their family.

A half Windsor is still the regulation knot in a lot of schools in which you still have to wear a tie, It was in mine, for example. A four-in-hand was simply not allowed. There was a way to do a knot, and it was the half windsor. I have never worn a full windsor. The knot is just huge. I will wear a half windsor for more formal occasions (weddings, interviews, etc...) and save the four in hand for things like grenadines and knit ties, worn "casually".

Re. us not liking it because it is something that the lower classes wore, I just don't buy it. We love things that lower classes wore and things that are inspired by working class subcultures - fishtail parkas, slim mod style suits, jeans, workwear anything, chore coats, etc. I think that no one really cares.

 

[dieworkwear]



Re. us not liking it because it is something that the lower classes wore, I just don't buy it.  We love things that lower classes wore and things that are inspired by working class subcultures - fishtail parkas, slim mod style suits, jeans, workwear anything, chore coats, etc.  I think that no one really cares.

I think tailored clothing is a little more traditional though. Ideas about "good taste" are very much governed by class. Even the few exceptions I can think of -- e.g. seersucker once being a poor man's cloth -- were only widely accepted once social elites wore them.

I can't think of any examples of where something exclusively designated "working class" is considered "good."

Realize this is ****** and dumb, but that's the dynamic. If a bunch of English aristocrats, Hollywood elites, and US tycoons wore the full-Windsor for the second half of the 20th century, it wouldn't be considered "bad."

 

[LA Guy]

I think tailored clothing is a little more traditional though. Ideas about "good taste" are very much governed by class. Even the few exceptions I can think of -- e.g. seersucker once being a poor man's cloth -- were only widely accepted once social elites wore them.

I can't think of any examples of where something exclusively designated "working class" is considered "good."

Realize this is ****** and dumb, but that's the dynamic. If a bunch of English aristocrats, Hollywood elites, and US tycoons wore the full-Windsor for the second half of the 20th century, it wouldn't be considered "bad."

What abot the slim suits and minimal details inspired by mods? They has been considered in good taste - as opposed to the ostentatious "Pitti" uniforms that people have fun reviling.

 

[dieworkwear]



What abot the slim suits and minimal details inspired by mods? They has been considered in good taste  - as opposed to the ostentatious "Pitti" uniforms that people have fun reviling.

Hm, that's a good example. I don't think those are considered in "good taste" (in the Manton sense), but it's true that they're generally popular/ well-loved, even though they were rejected by elites (largely speaking, anyway).

 

[Van Veen]

If you have enough swagger, you could rock any color shoe. I don't know many dudes that could pull those CPs off. You really need to give no ***** at all and that's pretty rare.

That first CDG model could wear them with that outfit just as easily IMO.

My problem is it seems like people just sub them in for white CPs most of the time, and it just doesn't work. For example, I see a lot of monochrome black/white fits with rose or mint sneakers. It's like the SWD equivalent of black suit/white shirt/pastel tie, which usually looks hideous. The runway models are wearing some color up top, which balances it out.

What's up with dudes wearing windsors/half windsors? See it everywhere, always tied too short. Is that like what GQ says is fancier?

A full Windsor is a big, fat, ostentatious knot, but the half windsor is sorta the standard knot of choice.  It's symmetrical, it's neat, and it is more formal than a four-in-hand.  It's the knot that we had to use in my high school uniform, for example.  

Spoiler

A full Windsor used to be more popular, and ties were tied shorter as well - remember that pants used to sit much closer to the natural waist.  a half Windsor is not going to be that short unless you are really tall, or don't know how to gauge how much length to leave in the blade.  

Also, I think that if a tie hits below the top of the belt. it's probably too long.  A lot too short also looks silly, but I tend to err on the side of too short rather than too long,   Too long says "high school prom."

The sense I get is that a lot of the people that wear either Windsor knot have some sort of superiority complex that they learned to tie a "better" tie knot, especially young people. They focus on "what" vs. "how," which is an immature attitude in general. (I say this because I used to be like that. I thought I had learned something special that set me apart when I learned a half Windsor, even though I was wearing ****** ties with bad fits, like the aforementioned black suit with a colored tie.)

I would argue that since most men use a four-in-hand when wearing morning dress (the most formal use of a long tie), the four-in-hand is no less formal than any other knot. As I always say when this issue comes up, if you look at historical pictures, 90%+ of classic men's style icons used a four-in-hand knot.

If you believe one of the characteristics of classic/everyday style is "effortlessness," the Windsor knots fly in the face of this. Tie whatever knot you want (as long as the proportions work), just know it doesn't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.