NYT Article - Looking Like A Billion Bucks - Spring '08

[SoCal2NYC]

Originally Posted by yeayea

Ive been books like "On Being a Man" by Sam Keen and "Iron John" by Robery Bly lately -

Heres the premise in brief:

- Beginning with the Industrial Revolution, boys have spent consistently less and less time in the presence of men as mentors, as their fathers moved from farming and the trades to the office

- Men spent 9 to 5 in the office and came home exhausted and watched TV, rather than mentoring the boys

- Women became more of a role model as they were the prominent figure in the home

- The sexual revolution of the 60s allowed women to enter the world of men (work and the office) and men to wear long hair a be sensitive (hippies)

- The culture of war has moved from the battlefields to the boardroom (manhood obtained by climbing the corporate ladder)

- Popular western culture lacks the ritual "rites of passage" towards manhood that were used in cultures of the past. What has replaced them (military bootcamp, fraternity hazing, binge drinking) are weak substitutes and have little to do with actual manhood

The result? A generation of indecisive men ("i dont know honey, what do YOU want to do tonight?")

Modern trends in fashion (Peter Pan: the boy who refused to grow up) only reflect this trend in our popular culture.

 

[yeayea]

Originally Posted by yeayea

Modern trends in fashion (Peter Pan: the boy who refused to grow up) only reflect this trend in our popular culture.
Well.. I added that last part. The books dont get into fashion. For the record, Im certainly no fashion critic or historian, but thought it would make an interesting hypothesis given the theme of the article. Anyway, it perfectly coincided with these rather profound books ive been reading lately on manhood and the role of modern man in society, particularly the whole Peter Pan comment.

 

[ineffable]

by your estimation, generations of men before us should have been indecisive pansies too.

hmmm.. no, don't think so. things tend to be more complicated than that.

i would look for some new reading material.

 

[edmorel]

Originally Posted by yeayea

Well.. I added that last part. The books dont get into fashion.

For the record, Im certainly no fashion critic or historian, but thought it would make an interesting hypothesis given the theme of the article. Anyway, it perfectly coincided with these rather profound books ive been reading lately on manhood and the role of modern man in society, particularly the whole Peter Pan comment.

Well I do agree that the current 18-25 year olds that I am exposed to (urban, well heeled, too much time/money on their hands), both in the real world and the virtual one, are the biggest bunch of pussies I've ever seen. Some of the crap that these kids complain about now would have gotten me a good firm smack across the face from my old man. Also, while I dress bolder/louder/worst than many, some of these current outfits (stovepipe jeans that that split your nuts at the crotch, belly baring tees on men) would also garner me a good beating, and rightfully so.

 

[Sartorially Challenged]

Go shoot guns, train in MMA/NHB and make love to one's wife/girlfriend like a bull.

Then one can still feel manly in sartorial splendor. Or would it be over-compensation?

 

[ineffable]

Originally Posted by edmorel

Well I do agree that the current 18-25 year olds that I am exposed to (urban, well heeled, too much time/money on their hands), both in the real world and the virtual one, are the biggest bunch of pussies I've ever seen. Some of the crap that these kids complain about now would have gotten me a good firm smack across the face from my old man. Also, while I dress bolder/louder/worst than many, some of these current outfits (stovepipe jeans that that split your nuts at the crotch, belly baring tees on men) would also garner me a good beating, and rightfully so.

conne left a deep, lasting impression?

 

[scarphe]

The major point of iron john as i see it, havinf read it a about 4 year ago, was that there is a lack of confirmation of the masculine identity fior niehter the the society or the person himself. He list many causes for this blah blah, But he is using a his conecpet of what man is and should be, thus to accept his arguemnt as valid u must accept his concpet of masculinity, which I honestly think that Bly contests that it is something natural and static. But If you take a different outlook that the masculine identity is defined by the culture and is dynamic the same model to acheive Manhood or the ideal maculine identitity, according to Bly, may not be the same nor even apply.

an example 30 years ago in most western societies all men at one point in their lives were part of the military for a minimum of one year in germany it is still required , though has changed slightly so as to allow civl service as an option. But that right of passage stilll existed to a point in most of the western world as well as other small tradition hunting if you had the means to do so etc. These things by and large have been left behind for the most part so the masculine identity must change as well .

Or consider it in another light maybe the road to manhood no longer has discrete values but has continues values.

 

[scarphe]

The major point of iron john as i see it, havinf read it a about 4 year ago, was that there is a lack of confirmation of the masculine identity fior niehter the the society or the person himself. He list many causes for this blah blah, But he is using a his conecpet of what man is and should be, thus to accept his arguemnt as valid u must accept his concpet of masculinity, which I honestly think that Bly contests that it is something natural and static. But If you take a different outlook that the masculine identity is defined by the culture and is dynamic the same model to acheive Manhood or the ideal maculine identitity, according to Bly, may not be the same nor even apply.

an example 30 years ago in most western societies all men at one point in their lives were part of the military for a minimum of one year in germany it is still required , though has changed slightly so as to allow civl service as an option. But that right of passage stilll existed to a point in most of the western world as well as other small tradition hunting if you had the means to do so etc. These things by and large have been left behind for the most part so the masculine identity must change as well .

Or consider it in another light maybe the road to manhood no longer has discrete values but has continues values.

 

[scarphe]

The major point of iron john as i see it, havinf read it a about 4 year ago, was that there is a lack of confirmation of the masculine identity fior niehter the the society or the person himself. He list many causes for this blah blah, But he is using a his conecpet of what man is and should be, thus to accept his arguemnt as valid u must accept his concpet of masculinity, which I honestly think that Bly contests that it is something natural and static. But If you take a different outlook that the masculine identity is defined by the culture and is dynamic the same model to acheive Manhood or the ideal maculine identitity, according to Bly, may not be the same nor even apply.

an example 30 years ago in most western societies all men at one point in their lives were part of the military for a minimum of one year in germany it is still required , though has changed slightly so as to allow civl service as an option. But that right of passage stilll existed to a point in most of the western world as well as other small tradition hunting if you had the means to do so etc. These things by and large have been left behind for the most part so the masculine identity must change as well .

Or consider it in another light maybe the road to manhood no longer has discrete values but has continues values.

 

[scarphe]

The major point of iron john as i see it, havinf read it a about 4 year ago, was that there is a lack of confirmation of the masculine identity fior niehter the the society or the person himself. He list many causes for this blah blah, But he is using a his conecpet of what man is and should be, thus to accept his arguemnt as valid u must accept his concpet of masculinity, which I honestly think that Bly contests that it is something natural and static. But If you take a different outlook that the masculine identity is defined by the culture and is dynamic the same model to acheive Manhood or the ideal maculine identitity, according to Bly, may not be the same nor even apply.

an example 30 years ago in most western societies all men at one point in their lives were part of the military for a minimum of one year in germany it is still required , though has changed slightly so as to allow civl service as an option. But that right of passage stilll existed to a point in most of the western world as well as other small tradition hunting if you had the means to do so etc. These things by and large have been left behind for the most part so the masculine identity must change as well .

Or consider it in another light maybe the road to manhood no longer has discrete values but has continues values.

 

[scarphe]

The major point of iron john as i see it, havinf read it a about 4 year ago, was that there is a lack of confirmation of the masculine identity fior niehter the the society or the person himself. He list many causes for this blah blah, But he is using a his conecpet of what man is and should be, thus to accept his arguemnt as valid u must accept his concpet of masculinity, which I honestly think that Bly contests that it is something natural and static. But If you take a different outlook that the masculine identity is defined by the culture and is dynamic the same model to acheive Manhood or the ideal maculine identitity, according to Bly, may not be the same nor even apply.

an example 30 years ago in most western societies all men at one point in their lives were part of the military for a minimum of one year in germany it is still required , though has changed slightly so as to allow civl service as an option. But that right of passage stilll existed to a point in most of the western world as well as other small tradition hunting if you had the means to do so etc. These things by and large have been left behind for the most part so the masculine identity must change as well .

Or consider it in another light maybe the road to manhood no longer has discrete values but has continues values.
now off to a party