Mod to Suedehead

[Reggae Mike]

I think you’re right.
Coming up in the late seventies a hard three was a semi-subtle identifier of Mod roots or influence (still is!) and I don’t know anyone who was familiar with the various three-roll iterations. Even now I think you’d be hard pushed to find anyone in England bar maybe the most ardent Ivy cult purist wearing a three roll two or the version I really detest which is the three press two which is basically a two button jacket with pressed flat lapels and an ugly button hole buggering up the lower lapel!

But the original question - the way I understand is that early sixties Mods were impressed equally by the jazz, soul and blues musicians from America coming over who had adopted Ivy style as a buy-in to respectability, and by slim cut Italian suits. When they got into tailored gear there was a bit of a hybrid between the tweedy cloths and seersucker from Ivy and the hard three slim cut Italian influence.

I’ve been to the O’Connels shop in Buffalo a few times and while it’s an Aladdin’s cave of a vast range of trad / Ivy gear I only bought cufflinks and a tie from there. I suppose within the Mod canon I lean more towards the continental influence than American Ivy!

I remembered some originals early in this thread posting about it. Also, I think a post by yourself, about adding buttons to a jacket so it felt right to you.

 

[Reggae Mike]

I'm completely on your side with this mate. I think the way suits are tailored is THE one thing I really dislike in mod cannon. In my opinion the golden age of tailoring style is the 30s, and I'll always prefer a sack over slim suits. Slim lapels are especially hard for me to understand.

The 30s jackets are great, cant hang with the drape trousers though. Slim lapels remind me of jamacian singers during the rude boy era, cold like ice to me. Its good to know you have your own preferances and not jumpin on no band wagon

 

[Thin White Duke]

Yeah many times I’ve successfully converted two button jackets to hard threes.
I’m an advocate of slim but not skinny lapels, I think about 3 or maybe 3.5 inches is the widest I have. I was a kid in the early seventies when wingspan shirt collars, shoulder width jacket lapels, kipper ties and bell bottoms were all the rage. I never want to go there again. It’s fine for some to prefer lapels wider than my own taste - vive le difference - but it narks me on SF when someone posts a pic of excessively wide lapels and the pundits are queueing up to slavver all over them like the seventies never happened!

 

[Botolph]

I went to O’Connell’s three days ago while in Buffalo for business. I like their shop, including their sack jackets, outerwear, Shetland and lambswool woolens, and a few other bits and bobs— but I’ve often found their trousers too baggy. I do have one suit I bought from them in a hard-wearing grey twill, whose trousers have maybe a 8.5” hem— which I think is the limit on me.
Lapels are about 3.5”, and the gorge is at least that many inches down from the shoulder seams(so not like many contemporary[Pitti Uomo type] cuts with the gorges practically on the shoulders accentuating the 4”+ lapels).
O’Connell’s has tailoring done by a small variety of American and Canadian companies, but I think Southwick out of Massachusetts makes the most natural-shouldered, slightly-darted jackets— and J Press has a lot of theirs made by Southwick.
I actually went into OC’s on the hunt for a corduroy jacket, and found an excellent nutmeg colored one, so I left happy.
The best I can say is, if you can, to try before you buy. There are a variety of subtle differences even among their house cut— harder/softer shoulder, gorge height, button stance, patch or welted pockets, flap or no flap, etc.
I saw this amazing tweed sport coat a O’Cs and tried it on. It fit perfectly, but the ultra-low button stance and 3-button hard-pressed to 2 just looked ridiculous on me.
I usually buy trousers at J Press, as they’re more slim-fitting and even their jackets are more flattering than O’Connell’s.
Suffice it to say that O’Cs is the more traditional side of Ivy style, whereas J Press is more on the “jivey” Ivy side, and more skinhead/mod-friendly in cut, for us on the slimmer side.
J Press is the younger, slimmer Dr. Indiana Jones look, and O’Connell’s is his older, huskier mentor, Dr. Brody’s look. Choose wisely…

 

[Thin White Duke]

I went to O’Connell’s three days ago while in Buffalo for business. I like their shop, including their sack jackets, outerwear, Shetland and lambswool woolens, and a few other bits and bobs— but I’ve often found their trousers too baggy. I do have one suit I bought from them in a hard-wearing grey twill, whose trousers have maybe a 8.5” hem— which I think is the limit on me.
Lapels are about 3.5”, and the gorge is at least that many inches down from the shoulder seams(so not like many contemporary[Pitti Uomo type] cuts with the gorges practically on the shoulders accentuating the 4”+ lapels).
O’Connell’s has tailoring done by a small variety of American and Canadian companies, but I think Southwick out of Massachusetts makes the most natural-shouldered, slightly-darted jackets— and J Press has a lot of theirs made by Southwick.
I actually went into OC’s on the hunt for a corduroy jacket, and found an excellent nutmeg colored one, so I left happy.
The best I can say is, if you can, to try before you buy. There are a variety of subtle differences even among their house cut— harder/softer shoulder, gorge height, button stance, patch or welted pockets, flap or no flap, etc.
I saw this amazing tweed sport coat a O’Cs and tried it on. It fit perfectly, but the ultra-low button stance and 3-button hard-pressed to 2 just looked ridiculous on me.
I usually buy trousers at J Press, as they’re more slim-fitting and even their jackets are more flattering than O’Connell’s.
Suffice it to say that O’Cs is the more traditional side of Ivy style, whereas J Press is more on the “jivey” Ivy side, and more skinhead/mod-friendly in cut, for us on the slimmer side.
J Press is the younger, slimmer Dr. Indiana Jones look, and O’Connell’s is his older, huskier mentor, Dr. Brody’s look. Choose wisely…

Excellent write up there. Here’s my blog post from my first visit in 2019:

A Visit To O’Connell’s

I came across O’Connell’s while browsing around the internet. The shop seems to be held in high regard by admirers of traditional American clothing and / or the Ivy Style. Original Mods of the earl…

rodsmodblog.wordpress.com

 

[Botolph]

Excellent write up there. Here’s my blog post from my first visit in 2019:

A Visit To O’Connell’s

I came across O’Connell’s while browsing around the internet. The shop seems to be held in high regard by admirers of traditional American clothing and / or the Ivy Style. Original Mods of the earl…

rodsmodblog.wordpress.com

@Thin White Duke — Fantastic assessment of a legendary joint.

 

[smalltownbigboots]

Great to learn all that about the shop, Botolph and Thin White Duke. I am jealous of you being able to go in person and I wish I'd thought to ask here before doing all my own research.

Someday I am sure I'll get to the shop but this time I had to order online. I did speak with someone on the phone first and confirmed that they get their suits made at the same places as J. Press, where I was able to go in person a few weeks ago to try things on and check for the union label in the jacket pocket. (I would have bought a J. Press suit but they were sold out of my size. Now I see they have more sizes in stock and they're on sale now too, oh well.)

At present, the O'Connell's house brand suits from Canada are made by Empire and the U.S. suits are made at Rochester Tailored Clothing, where Hickey Freeman was made until recently. Both Empire and RTC are union.

The suit I got has 3.5 inch lapels and is 9 inches across the hem, which is certainly broader than I'd usually wear since I'm on the tall and slim side. But again, it's for work. And maybe I'll try to get the jacket and trousers slimmed just a touch. (I do know a sack suit should not be slim fit.) Meanwhile I'm very pleased with the high rise of the trousers.

 

[Swampster]

It's curious to me how 1960s skinhead style integrates aspects of Ivy (in particular, the three finger collar and Harrington jacket) but the suits are so completely different from the classic American 3-roll-2, 1950s sack style. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on why that is.

There is the double influence of Ivy and Italian cut, which rather pulled in different directions.
Deliberate reaction to the cut of their dads' suits would be part of it. Lots of the men would have still had a demob suit, which were fairly loosely cut. I suppose the age of the kids buying the suits meant that a lot of them were probably slim anyway - especially having grown up with rationing in their formative years. Even having grown up in the sugar- and fat-rich 60s and 70s, I would have looked drowned in a typical 30s cut, even if it were properly tailored. Now that I am somewhat fuller figured, a slim cut would look dreadful on me.

 

[covskin]

There is the double influence of Ivy and Italian cut, which rather pulled in different directions.

The skinhead suit jacket was neither of these. It was pure English equestrian - high buttoning, nipped waist, slanted pockets, long skirt.

It's curious to me how 1960s skinhead style integrates aspects of Ivy (in particular, the three finger collar and Harrington jacket) but the suits are so completely different from the classic American 3-roll-2, 1950s sack style. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on why that is.

Because it was a new and different look, otherwise they would just be looking like the bloke in Bewitched. An English equestrian jacket will have been something these oiks shouldn't have been wearing, like Fred Perry tennis shirts. Do they even play tennis or go fox hunting?

 

[Man-of-Mystery]

I can remember reading the occasional article (?) in the 1960s that equated mod fashions with an element of Ivy (e.g. Steve Marriott wearing a Madras jacket; someone saying "Your suit has an Ivy League look"; a 1960s band actually calling itself The Ivy League; etc.). The skinhead suit jacket seems, to me, to fall between the traditional hacking jacket, which would typically be of tweed or some such, and the sharp American-style suit, which would be mohair or some lightweight material. In the mid 60s, mod jacket styles flirted with modern versions of Regency and Edwardian looks, and the latter even gave rise to four-button jackets. I recall that this was where the habit of fastening the top button came from.

Despite the illustration above, skinheads and late mods typically fastened the top two buttons.

Here's the Ivy League, by the way. Not especially Ivy, I guess:

 

[Man-of-Mystery]

Madras jackets crossing over from Ivy League to Mod.

 

[Thin White Duke]

Under the tutelage of Pete Meaden The Who changed their name to The High Numbers and released ‘Zoot Suit’ in 1964. The B side was ‘I’m The Face’ which was a reworking of Slim Harpo’s ‘Got Love If You Want It’ (which is covered by the Yardbirds on ‘Five Live Yardbirds’). Within the lyrics are included ‘I wear Ivy League jackets - and white buckskin shoes’

I heard / read the term ‘Ivy League’ bandied about during the revival era when we researched details on original sixties Mods but I never really got a proper handle in what it meant for a long time. I think I saw ‘The Graduate’ on TV back then and had an idea it referred to the kind of gear Hoffman was wearing (three button herringbone and seersucker jackets) as he played a graduate from an unnamed east coast university which might be typical of what well to do students wore in the sixties but didn’t have much of a clue beyond that.

I didn’t know that the ‘Ivy League’ was a specific group of elite universities and that ‘Ivy League Style’ was a fairly circumscribed list of clothes typically worn by their students and professors. I wonder exactly how much of this was known by Pete Meaden and other sixties Mods when this kind of info wasn’t readily available on the www?

 

[Man-of-Mystery]

New podcast dropped.

Moving away from the 1960s and 70s this week, Kate Mowbray has made a playlist of Neo Soul today, featuring tracks by D’Angelo, Frank Ocean, Jill Scott, Eryka Badu, and more.

BONUS TRACK: Booker T & the MGs’ version of Gershwin’s ‘Summertime’.

Enjoy! Keep listening right to the end…

 

[Man-of-Mystery]

Under the tutelage of Pete Meaden The Who changed their name to The High Numbers and released ‘Zoot Suit’ in 1964. The B side was ‘I’m The Face’ which was a reworking of Slim Harpo’s ‘Got Love If You Want It’ (which is covered by the Yardbirds on ‘Five Live Yardbirds’). Within the lyrics are included ‘I wear Ivy League jackets - and white buckskin shoes’

I heard / read the term ‘Ivy League’ bandied about during the revival era when we researched details on original sixties Mods but I never really got a proper handle in what it meant for a long time. I think I saw ‘The Graduate’ on TV back then and had an idea it referred to the kind of gear Hoffman was wearing (three button herringbone and seersucker jackets) as he played a graduate from an unnamed east coast university which might be typical of what well to do students wore in the sixties but didn’t have much of a clue beyond that.

I didn’t know that the ‘Ivy League’ was a specific group of elite universities and that ‘Ivy League Style’ was a fairly circumscribed list of clothes typically worn by their students and professors. I wonder exactly how much of this was known by Pete Meaden and other sixties Mods when this kind of info wasn’t readily available on the www?

Good questions. I can say that we had a lot of American TV and Hollywood films in the 1960s. Even Mad Magazine mentioned the Ivy League! The Ivy Shop in Richmond opened in 1965. We had Napoleon Solo, the English chic of Simon Templar, John Drake in Danger Man, The Thomas Crown Affair, the Kennedy Brothers, Robert Reed in The Defenders, the Beach Boys, Whirlybirds for aviator shades, GIs from Air Force bases down the road, a heady mix of sharp-dressing role models popular on both sides of the Atlantic. Now I come to think of it, Charles Hamblett and Jane Deverson's 1965 book Generation X was where I first read the words "Ivy League' in connection with British youth culture.

 

[Thin White Duke]

Good questions. I can say that we had a lot of American TV and Hollywood films in the 1960s. Even Mad Magazine mentioned the Ivy League! The Ivy Shop in Richmond opened in 1965. We had Napoleon Solo, the English chic of Simon Templar, John Drake in Danger Man, The Thomas Crown Affair, the Kennedy Brothers, Robert Reed in The Defenders, the Beach Boys, Whirlybirds for aviator shades, GIs from Air Force bases down the road, a heady mix of sharp-dressing role models popular on both sides of the Atlantic. Now I come to think of it, Charles Hamblett and Jane Deverson's 1965 book Generation X was where I first read the words "Ivy League' in connection with British youth culture.

Well without wanting to get into a protracted and boring debate over exactly what qualifies as ‘Ivy League’ - I’m aware of most of those pop culture references which all point to some cool aspects of sixties style but I’m not sure there’s much Ivy in some of them. It’s more like a list of cool mostly American images that may have had an influence on good style for those switched on in the sixties.

I didn’t know the Ivy shop was open as early as 1965. I only became aware of it comparatively recently and I’m surprised it was never mentioned in Richard Barnes’ book as it must have been an absolute goldmine for Mods in an era when getting your hands on American stuff would have been very difficult.