Luxury Watches

[SoCal2NYC]

Can you please show pics of a watch that YOUR watchmaker has made just for YOU?

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by Sator

In the old days the finest watchmakers still did a lot of the manufacture and finishing by hand. That is how my watchmaker learned to make watches. A lot of that is automated now and that is probably fine in most cases.

Neither I, nor my watchmaker, disagree that you do get a finer watch if you buy a Patek or a Vacheron Constantin. What is questionable is whether high end watches are worth what you pay for them. I know that's subjective and if you want to pay those prices, that's fine. High end watches are still overpriced and much of that has to do with the way the industry is structured and how the watches are marketed. That is why prices have doubled over the last ten years without an accompanying improvement in quality. As more and more independent groups get swallowed up it is only getting worse.

As I say haupt horologie has devotees who love it with a religious fervour, which makes it impossible to argue with. If that's what you enjoy, good for you, and we should really just leave it at that. I just happen to agree with Manton that there are more sensible ways to spend your money.

The prices we pay for products are often about much more than just the "quality" of the finished product. Most of us on this board wouldn't think it unreasonable to pay thousands of pounds/dollars for a bespoke suit, let alone hundreds of pounds/dollars for handmade shoes, or even accessories like belts or umbrellas. Most "normal" consumers would think we're mad, when you can buy a RTW suit for only a few hundred pounds/dollars. I think it's much the same with watches, except that part of the inflation in cost also comes from the materials (platinum, gold, precious stones, etc.) and the labour involved with the manufacturing and finishing process. I suspect there are probably a smaller number of skilled watchmakers in the world able to design a superb Patek than tailors able to sew a bespoke suit, but I may be wrong... A bigger part of it is that aficionadoes are willing to pay those prices. I don't think it's so outrageous. To each his own...

 

[William Massena]

Originally Posted by Sator

I agree. So instead of the "ever decreasing return" that you get with most things in life, with watches you reach a point where you can rapidly earn yourself negative returns. Sadly, most WIS (watch idiot savants) types are quite blind to this fact.
I am not sure I qualify as a WIS and I don't know your watchmaker but I somewhat agree with his claim but on relative smaller scale. However, you took two wide extremes as an example and it does not work for a Nomos vs a Patek mostly because they are at the extreme end of the spectrum. But is a Glashutte Original worth 5 to 7 times more than a similar Nomos made a few hundred yards next door? Is a Lange worth 4X more than a similar GO? Better made? hardly. Prestige? Nope, most likely 'marketing". I have a feeling that a real WIS would agree with the negative returns. You reach a level in watchmaking where the human ingenuity combined with finishing skills reach a level difficult to go beyond. Yet depending on brands, the prices are escalating. Is a Dufour simplicity worth 3 Patek calatrava? I doubt it, but there are people who believe that it is because it will cost them three times more to purchase a Dufour therefore the Dufour is 3 times better. Is a Patek calatrava worth 3 Glashutte? I don't think so either and I have visited all these factories. There is a sucker born every minute but he is not necessarily always a WIS William Massena PS: GDL envois moi un Email pour se faire une bouffe avec Felipe, je n'arrive pas a t'envoyer un PM

 

[mhdena]

This is one of the longest posts I've read of yours, I guess there aren't any/many kool-aid drinkers here

 

[Coho]

I share this view also. Incidentally, most people who are willing to spend this much on watches have never cleaned a movement to see how little differences there exist between, for example, a basic VJ7750 chrono and numerous high-end "modifications" based on the same calibre that sell many times more without the commensurate improvement in accuracy. Mfoofan, while I know you aspire to have the best and are more fortunate than others in terms of financial means (me for example and we're at roughly the same age and educational level), I think there's a boundary between getting a well made product and a well made product based on perceived brand image. I also believe that good taste comes from an understanding of the craft and appreciation of value, and while these qualities are rooted in the subjective, I hope your taste does not fall in the latter. I appreciate everything they do at VC and Patek but what they charge for their basic models are way overpriced. For that money, I'd rather have a hand-made product from an independent watchmaker. There's no doubt that I'll get an equal or better made product because less was spent on marketing and advertisement. William Massena is perhaps the more moderate voice in this thread and I agree with his assessment. Yes, I have personally vouched for the Dufour Simplicity but when it comes time to purchase one, I'll probably chicken out and get myself a couple of watches from less well known makers instead. Dufour has become too famous, and subsequently too brandy, but there's no doubt that they make a good product, whose worth should be much less but potential buyers look the other way. I think it's good to be a WIS but it's better to be an intelligent consumer. Since this is a style forum, I would say that many WIS I know are of nerdy type. This opinion comes from the GTGs I've been to. Sure, we have a good time together talking watches, but there's more to life than spending tons of money to impress guy next to you. Unfortunately, the guy with the most expensive watch loaded with tons of unnecessary complications always get the compliment, " [insert name] you have really good taste."

Originally Posted by Sator

In the old days the finest watchmakers still did a lot of the manufacture and finishing by hand. That is how my watchmaker learned to make watches. A lot of that is automated now and that is probably fine in most cases. Neither I, nor my watchmaker, disagree that you do get a finer watch if you buy a Patek or a Vacheron Constantin. What is questionable is whether high end watches are worth what you pay for them. I know that's subjective and if you want to pay those prices, that's fine. High end watches are still overpriced and much of that has to do with the way the industry is structured and how the watches are marketed. That is why prices have doubled over the last ten years without an accompanying improvement in quality. As more and more independent groups get swallowed up it is only getting worse. Lastly, it doesn't have to be about Nomos. What about Seiko vs. Swiss haupte horologie? And what about IWC vs Patek? As I say haupt horologie has devotees who love it with a religious fervour, which makes it impossible to argue with. If that's what you enjoy, good for you, and we should really just leave it at that. I just happen to agree with Manton that there are more sensible ways to spend your money.

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by Coho

It's a stupid addiction, seriously. You're a very sane man for not feeling the pull.
Unfortunately for me, I like watches, clothes, shoes, fountain pens, vintage luxury goods, and taxidermy.

 

[Coho]

LK, don't get marry, or you're going to be one unhappy lad, with so many hobbies.

Originally Posted by LabelKing

Unfortunately for me, I like watches, clothes, shoes, fountain pens, vintage luxury goods, and taxidermy.

 

[SoCal2NYC]

Originally Posted by Coho

I share this view also. Incidentally, most people who are willing to spend this much on watches have never cleaned a movement to see how little differences there exist between, for example, a basic VJ7750 chrono and numerous high-end "modifications" based on the same calibre that sell many times more without the commensurate improvement in accuracy. Mfoofan, while I know you aspire to have the best and are more fortunate than others in terms of financial means (me for example and we're at roughly the same age and educational level), I think there's a boundary between getting a well made product and a well made product based on perceived brand image. I also believe that good taste comes from an understanding of the craft and appreciation of value, and while these qualities are rooted in the subjective, I hope your taste does not fall in the latter. I appreciate everything they do at VC and Patek but what they charge for their basic models are way overpriced. For that money, I'd rather have a hand-made product from an independent watchmaker. There's no doubt that I'll get an equal or better made product because less was spent on marketing and advertisement.

William Massena is perhaps the more moderate voice in this thread and I agree with his assessment. Yes, I have personally vouched for the Dufour Simplicity but when it comes time to purchase one, I'll probably chicken out and get myself a couple of watches from less well known makers instead. Dufour has become too famous, and subsequently too brandy, but there's no doubt that they make a good product, whose worth should be much less but potential buyers look the other way.

I think it's good to be a WIS but it's better to be an intelligent consumer. Since this is a style forum, I would say that many WIS I know are of nerdy type. This opinion comes from the GTGs I've been to. Sure, we have a good time together talking watches, but there's more to life than spending tons of money to impress guy next to you. Unfortunately, the guy with the most expensive watch loaded with tons of unnecessary complications always get the compliment, " [insert name] you have really good taste."


...says the guy with some fugly Movado?

 

[Fuuma]

I think the OP is looking at this using the wrong angle. Any watch will give you what you need (the time) so I'd just look at as many designs as possible, not worry about how they're priced and, after reading some reviews from afficionados, purchase the casual and dress watch I like, keeping in mind the maximum combined price of 20K. You might end up buying a 3k casual watch and a 1.5K dress watch that really appeal to you instead of getting two 10K pieces that aren't the aesthetic you're going for.

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by William Massena

I am not sure I qualify as a WIS and I don't know your watchmaker but I somewhat agree with his claim but on relative smaller scale. However, you took two wide extremes as an example and it does not work for a Nomos vs a Patek mostly because they are at the extreme end of the spectrum. But is a Glashutte Original worth 5 to 7 times more than a similar Nomos made a few hundred yards next door? Is a Lange worth 4X more than a similar GO?
Better made? hardly. Prestige? Nope, most likely 'marketing".

I have a feeling that a real WIS would agree with the negative returns. You reach a level in watchmaking where the human ingenuity combined with finishing skills reach a level difficult to go beyond. Yet depending on brands, the prices are escalating. Is a Dufour simplicity worth 3 Patek calatrava? I doubt it, but there are people who believe that it is because it will cost them three times more to purchase a Dufour therefore the Dufour is 3 times better.
Is a Patek calatrava worth 3 Glashutte? I don't think so either and I have visited all these factories.


There is a sucker born every minute but he is not necessarily always a WIS



William Massena

PS: GDL envois moi un Email pour se faire une bouffe avec Felipe, je n'arrive pas a t'envoyer un PM

William, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a little hypocritical for us in this forum to rave and rant about marketing and mark-up with respect to watches. It's really like the pot calling the kettle black; most of the people on this board are willing to pay high prices for clothing, whether its $700 Dior jeans, $600 for a pair of C&Js, or a £5000 bespoke suit. The same factors of marketing and prestige, etc. come to play with clothing as much as with watches. For example, I love Jil Sander suits as much as the next guy here, but the price differential between one of Jil's (or, I suppose now it's Raf for Jil) suits and an equally well-made suit from a less high profile brand has nothing to do with quality of manufacture...

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by Fuuma

I think the OP is looking at this using the wrong angle. Any watch will give you what you need (the time) so I'd just look at as many designs as possible, not worry about how they're priced and, after reading some reviews from afficionados, purchase the casual and dress watch I like, keeping in mind the maximum combined price of 20K. You might end up buying a 3k casual watch and a 1.5K dress watch that really appeal to you instead of getting two 10K pieces that aren't the aesthetic you're going for.
+1 Speaking as a card-carry WIS I would certainly support this idea. The high-end dress watch market is really cornered by the old horological houses like VC, Patek, Breguet, etc. When it come to casual watches, I think that there is a much wider range to chose from, including some from more design-oriented watch manufacturers that don't charge too much. I have several watches by Ventura designed by Danish designer Flemming Bo Hansen which are modern and tasteful. I also recently read about the Maurice Lacroix Pontos Decentrique GMT which I believe won the red dot design award... It looks quite interesting and can be had for <$5K.

 

[norton]

I've seen some of this gentleman's watches, and read some of his books and I would dearly love to have him make a watch for me, but I'm afraid it isn't meant to be.

http://www.danielslondon.com/

His really are different on the inside.

 

[William Massena]

Originally Posted by academe

William, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a little hypocritical for us in this forum to rave and rant about marketing and mark-up with respect to watches. It's really like the pot calling the kettle black; most of the people on this board are willing to pay high prices for clothing, whether its $700 Dior jeans, $600 for a pair of C&Js, or a £5000 bespoke suit. The same factors of marketing and prestige, etc. come to play with clothing as much as with watches. For example, I love Jil Sander suits as much as the next guy here, but the price differential between one of Jil's (or, I suppose now it's Raf for Jil) suits and an equally well-made suit from a less high profile brand has nothing to do with quality of manufacture...

Academe, you are right. I am not sure it is hypocrisy if you are fully aware of it. I have an addiction for watches, but I have never shopped for the best quality/price ratio . I am lusting for them and the rational has long left me. I do exactly the same thing when I go to Rubinacci or any other haberdashery. I am not trying to justify myself or anybody of my purchase decision, I am fully aware of my own delusion and I think most people here are.

William

 

[academe]

Originally Posted by William Massena

Academe, you are right. I am not sure it is hypocrisy if you are fully aware of it. I have an addiction for watches, but I have never shopped for the best quality/price ratio . I am lusting for them and the rational has long left me. I do exactly the same thing when I go to Rubinacci or any other haberdashery. I am not trying to justify myself or anybody of my purchase decision, I am fully aware of my own delusion and I think most people here are.

William

True; "hypocrisy" is probably too strong a word for it, but I was struggling to find a word to convey what I meant. I'm a WIS, too, and what really dictates my purchases are what I can afford and what I like.

 

[clothinglagoon]

That's not a lot for a watch?