Luxury clothes of the past

[Son Of Saphir]

That's precisely my point, market competition will take care of this. If they don't have what it takes to charge the prices they ask, they just won't get enough business to sustain the career. They'll either lower their prices, pivot into different types of work or find some kinds of niche like you mentioned, or probably even change career completely.

But this is the thing, it is not always as simple as that, some can't lower their prices. Let me explain. The big challenge for numerous custom or even bespoke makers is marketing, and this was especially true before instagram. They would tell me, you can be as skilled as anyone, but if people don't know your name they won't come. Back in the day, in my geographic location, people weren't willing to pay $$$$ for a maker they didn't know for the most part, but they were willing to pay for big names like Gucci. Even in the U.S I recall makers like DW saying he had to do some repair work to make ends meet, likely because he didn't have the name to command higher prices. Even Delos got absorbed into Berluti; a brilliant maker, but he didn't have the name either outside of the forums imo. You also hear shoemakers saying, if it wasn't for instagram they would have never considered going independent. Of course there are also bespoke makers who have no internet presence at all and easily make a living on local word mouth, those are a very lucky group.

Funny enough, some of the best shoemakers in my country make shoes privately, it is all word of mouth and no advertising at all. The man who worked at Fosters swore me to secrecy to never tell anyone, but he quit because he felt he wasn't supported enough. Other makers are either retired and make shoe privately on the side, or other makers are cobblers who have trained with master cordwainers and make shoes on the side - they don't have the time and financial constraints, so they take their time in making shoes with all their love. Shoemakers with shop fronts have time constraints and need to charge more.

Here is an example of a shoe made by a local maker:

Here is the last he made for me and the trial shoe. Trial shoe is white because he was going to do a flashy patina Corthay style.


The result = we had to part ways. Worse fitting shoe l ever tried on, and he didn't know how to fix it. He was able to do everything except fit a shoe properly. Big disappointment.

 

[Frog in Suit]

This gets back to the major flaw in the premise of this entire thread which compares entry level to the top.

I posted the statistic somewhere in this thread about the absolute height of shoe making pre-industrial revolution where fewer than 3% of shoemakers were doing bespoke work in England.

Were people having their shoes and tailoring made for them? Sure. But was it good work? The people who could afford it when to the good houses, sure, but the people below them maybe went to a sloppier maker using worse materials - hence the introduction of the word cobbler. The people below them having them made by their wives at home or being reliant second hand goods. Bespoke tailoring was still a luxury even before RTW.

The idea that the majority, or even a large minority was having good bespoke work done is just not accurate. When we are back from holiday I’ll find some time to go through our family storage and look for the receipts and records on some of the bigger houses in the late 19th and early 20th century.

If I recall the last time I looked - in addition to the cost of the suits/shoes, the tickets I found for the trip to get to England for the fittings and then a trip back to bring things home was roughly the equivalent of the average annual salary.

Indeed, not everyone could afford West End prices for shoes, suits, shirts, etc. But everyone (or at least a large part of the population) could find bespoke products (before RTW became the norm) at various price points. There were tailors, etc., in many provincial cities who may not have been as good as exclusive SR tailors but who were also much less expensive. Given the longevity of the garments of the time, I should think the original owners gave or sold what they did not wear any more (because fashion had changed? because of normal wear and tear?) and those second-hand clothes, after being given a new life by alteration tailors, were recycled and worn until they wore out.

Even within London, city tailors were less expensive than SR. Even now, there are tailors in Lamb’s Conduit Street who, I am told, are more affordable.

When I lived in England in the mid-eighties, London shops would close from Friday afternoon ‘til Monday morning. I found a tailor, closer to where I was based, who was open on Saturday morning. It was also much cheaper. I still have, and wear, some of the garments I acquired then (They had to be altered, I admit, because my measurements changed but given they were made in old-fashioned, heavy cloths, they may very well survive me.

 

[Frog in Suit]

But this is the thing, it is not always as simple as that, some can't lower their prices. Let me explain. The big challenge for numerous custom or even bespoke makers is marketing, and this was especially true before instagram. They would tell me, you can be as skilled as anyone, but if people don't know your name they won't come. Back in the day, in my geographic location, people weren't willing to pay $$$$ for a maker they didn't know for the most part, but they were willing to pay for big names like Gucci. Even in the U.S I recall makers like DW saying he had to do some repair work to make ends meet, likely because he didn't have the name to command higher prices. Even Delos got absorbed into Berluti; a brilliant maker, but he didn't have the name either outside of the forums imo. You also hear shoemakers saying, if it wasn't for instagram they would have never considered going independent. Of course there are also bespoke makers who have no internet presence at all and easily make a living on local word mouth, those are a very lucky group.

Funny enough, some of the best shoemakers in my country make shoes privately, it is all word of mouth and no advertising at all. The man who worked at Fosters swore me to secrecy to never tell anyone, but he quit because he felt he wasn't supported enough. Other makers are either retired and make shoe privately on the side, or other makers are cobblers who have trained with master cordwainers and make shoes on the side - they don't have the time and financial constraints, so they take their time in making shoes with all their love. Shoemakers with shop fronts have time constraints and need to charge more.

Here is an example of a shoe made by a local maker:
View attachment 2303615

Here is the last he made for me and the trial shoe. Trial shoe is white because he was going to do a flashy patina Corthay style.
View attachment 2303617 View attachment 2303621

The result = we had to part ways. Worse fitting shoe l ever tried on, and he didn't know how to fix it. He was able to do everything except fit a shoe properly. Big disappointment.

I have only once used a travelling tailor I had not previously researched. I was in the States then and saw an advert in the WSJ. After moving to England I went and had two suits made by him.
I only went to established names (with a shop, but not necessarily with a top reputation) thereafter. Incidentally, I have never tried to go to the "big names" (A & S, Huntsman, et al.). I am small fry and not convinced I would get a better product.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Indeed, not everyone could afford West End prices for shoes, suits, shirts, etc. But everyone (or at least a large part of the population) could find bespoke products (before RTW became the norm) at various price points.

They couldn’t.

This is an entirely imagined version of history. A very, very small part of the population could find or afford bespoke products. You should give Ready Made Democracy a read.

 

[Frog in Suit]

They couldn’t.

This is an entirely imagined version of history. A very, very small part of the population could find or afford bespoke products. You should give Ready Made Democracy a read.

I was more thinking of the UK. There were, within living memory, tailors in the provinces of varying skill, no doubt. I shouln't think there was RTW before the end of the XIXth century. There must be members, more knowledgeable than I, who can comment...

 

[shoefan57]

I was more thinking of the UK. There were, within living memory, tailors in the provinces of varying skill, no doubt. I shouln't think there was RTW before the end of the XIXth century. There must be members, more knowledgeable than I, who can comment...

I am not qualified to comment on the quality but I had a suit bespoke made for me by a tailor in Blackpool (Lancashire) back in 1988. It fitted me very well. My father had all his suits bespoke tailored by a British Italian man in Rochdale ( also Lancashire) who also made suits for Len Dodd, though his suits were much more sober than Doddy’s 😂. Again they fitted well and lasted well. I doubt either town has a bespoke tailor now but stand to be corrected.

 

[shoefan57]

Ken not Len!

 

[JohnMRobie]

I was more thinking of the UK. There were, within living memory, tailors in the provinces of varying skill, no doubt. I shouln't think there was RTW before the end of the XIXth century. There must be members, more knowledgeable than I, who can comment...

The overwhelming majority relied on homemade clothes, second hand goods and things that were cobbled together. The advent of a large middle class and people who needed to wear tailoring is a relatively new phenomena, certainly post-industrial revolution.

There were more tailors but that includes many tailors at a lower price point doing what we would consider substandard work continue to exist throughout the world and certainly not what would qualify as bespoke to any of us using the term as we know it.

The reality though is that if you look at like to like, and re-read the original premise of this thread, is that while people bemoan the loss of “luxury” - goods have largely improved while getting relatively more affordable and infinitely more accessible when comparing like to like. The sole place this isn’t the case is bespoke but they’ve also become more accessible even though they’re more limited and relatively more expensive - again though, this is a new phenomena.

What is lost is the “charm” of the haberdasher in your town stocking them but that’s simply a change in how they were acquired and isn’t universally true. There continue to be excellent menswear boutiques throughout the world stocking these goods. There’s a loss in the knowledge of the sales associates but again, that’s easily remedied by ordering from a quality boutique and most major metro areas still have access to these.

Old brands have certainly died off or lost their charm and succumbed to buyouts or chasing profits but this also isn’t a new thing. It’s just the brands you’re used to did it this time. They’ve also been replaced by others.

 

[clee1982]

Did a large “middle class” even exist pre WW2?

Like I assume early 20th century there were lots of industrial labor not much white collar wear mostly “bullet proof/hard weather” stuff that I can’t imagine we would consider as luxury today, they’re made bespoke only in the sense it’s not coming out a factory not really what we meant today (or “yet”, whenever BB starts at least in the US I suppose)

 

[comrade]

But this is the thing, it is not always as simple as that, some can't lower their prices. Let me explain. The big challenge for numerous custom or even bespoke makers is marketing, and this was especially true before instagram. They would tell me, you can be as skilled as anyone, but if people don't know your name they won't come. Back in the day, in my geographic location, people weren't willing to pay $$$$ for a maker they didn't know for the most part, but they were willing to pay for big names like Gucci. Even in the U.S I recall makers like DW saying he had to do some repair work to make ends meet, likely because he didn't have the name to command higher prices. Even Delos got absorbed into Berluti; a brilliant maker, but he didn't have the name either outside of the forums imo. You also hear shoemakers saying, if it wasn't for instagram they would have never considered going independent. Of course there are also bespoke makers who have no internet presence at all and easily make a living on local word mouth, those are a very lucky group.

Funny enough, some of the best shoemakers in my country make shoes privately, it is all word of mouth and no advertising at all. The man who worked at Fosters swore me to secrecy to never tell anyone, but he quit because he felt he wasn't supported enough. Other makers are either retired and make shoe privately on the side, or other makers are cobblers who have trained with master cordwainers and make shoes on the side - they don't have the time and financial constraints, so they take their time in making shoes with all their love. Shoemakers with shop fronts have time constraints and need to charge more.

Here is an example of a shoe made by a local maker:
View attachment 2303615

Here is the last he made for me and the trial shoe. Trial shoe is white because he was going to do a flashy patina Corthay style.
View attachment 2303617 View attachment 2303621

The result = we had to part ways. Worse fitting shoe l ever tried on, and he didn't know how to fix it. He was able to do everything except fit a shoe properly. Big disappointment.

Did a large “middle class” even exist pre WW2?

Like I assume early 20th century there were lots of industrial labor not much white collar wear mostly “bullet proof/hard weather” stuff that I can’t imagine we would consider as luxury today, they’re made bespoke only in the sense it’s not coming out a factory not really what we meant today (or “yet”, whenever BB starts at least in the US I suppose)

Large Middle Class pre WW2

Yes. Especially in the US Canada, Australia , New Zealend, Argentina, probably Scandinavia.
The US pioneered in factory-made clothing. Brooks Brothers started producing RTW in 1849,
although they continued high-end bespoke through the mid 1950s. My family, on my maternal
side were all wealthy business people despite humble immigrant origins. My father was a very
successful Dentist and real estate investor. All wore high quality RTW, except one uncle whose
clothes came from one of the best bespoke houses in New York, now gone D'Andrea Bros.

Brooks Brothers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TAILOR FINDS MEN SHY ON FASHIONS; But Head of D'Andrea Bros. Lauds Trait -- Favors Comfort Over Style

Why do fashions in men's clothing change so infrequently?

timesmachine.nytimes.com

 

[wojt]

The overwhelming majority relied on homemade clothes, second hand goods and things that were cobbled together. The advent of a large middle class and people who needed to wear tailoring is a relatively new phenomena, certainly post-industrial revolution.

There were more tailors but that includes many tailors at a lower price point doing what we would consider substandard work continue to exist throughout the world and certainly not what would qualify as bespoke to any of us using the term as we know it.

The reality though is that if you look at like to like, and re-read the original premise of this thread, is that while people bemoan the loss of “luxury” - goods have largely improved while getting relatively more affordable and infinitely more accessible when comparing like to like. The sole place this isn’t the case is bespoke but they’ve also become more accessible even though they’re more limited and relatively more expensive - again though, this is a new phenomena.

What is lost is the “charm” of the haberdasher in your town stocking them but that’s simply a change in how they were acquired and isn’t universally true. There continue to be excellent menswear boutiques throughout the world stocking these goods. There’s a loss in the knowledge of the sales associates but again, that’s easily remedied by ordering from a quality boutique and most major metro areas still have access to these.

Old brands have certainly died off or lost their charm and succumbed to buyouts or chasing profits but this also isn’t a new thing. It’s just the brands you’re used to did it this time. They’ve also been replaced by others.

Good post. Regarding the bolded a lot changed because of casualisation of clothing and coming up of designer brands/fast fashion(probably bemoaned a million times on the forum). Unfortunately(?) people are willing to pay big buck for brand they know and perfectly happy with being ignorant about materials and technology. One less thing to worry about I guess. So this definitely changed in 20th century.

I believe you are right that the industry is not in the bad place, and a lot of depends though on the geographical location. In my city(around 0.5-1mil size in EE) for example there's a significant loss of craftsmen of all trades(from mending wool clothing to shoe repair/ tbh even a good dry cleaner is not easy to find these days). Though lately we are getting more bespoke options recently with new places opening, which while puzzling(nobody is wearing suits nowadays in my city unless forced at gun point) is a positive. Maybe positive indicator for the future.

To be honest this "loss" is double edged sword - if old crafts, services and vintage clothing were more appreciated it would again much more expensive to make/buy anything decent by simple law of supply and demand(though bigger market for sure would have some advantages as well). Right now I can buy some rtw, I could afford best bespoke around here, vintage items are for peanuts, including some incredible quality designer pieces from 90s for my wife. That's possible because people do not care about quality/ do not research defunct brand and prefer fast fashion. Yes, we probably could have more luxurious items and better craftsmen, but some of us would be squeezed out of the market or at least have smaller wardrobes, because luxury is by default is labor intensive, comparative and exclusionary(like aforementioned bespoke). So we are also not in a bad place.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Did a large “middle class” even exist pre WW2?

Like I assume early 20th century there were lots of industrial labor not much white collar wear mostly “bullet proof/hard weather” stuff that I can’t imagine we would consider as luxury today, they’re made bespoke only in the sense it’s not coming out a factory not really what we meant today (or “yet”, whenever BB starts at least in the US I suppose)

Ready made clothes emerged in the early 1800s during the Industrial Revolution. The growing middle class was around the same period to accommodate this new brand of merchants and the first department stores arrived around the same time. Obviously there were still stylistic differences with the frock coat still being in vogue and the suit being worn by this lower class that still needed something that was presentable.

Then you got differentiation amongst the RTW with higher and lower quality goods of varying qualities. The version of history where everyone went and got something made for them is pure fantasy and never existed at any point in time.

Good post. Regarding the bolded a lot changed because of casualisation of clothing and coming up of designer brands/fast fashion(probably bemoaned a million times on the forum). Unfortunately(?) people are willing to pay big buck for brand they know and perfectly happy with being ignorant about materials and technology. One less thing to worry about I guess. So this definitely changed in 20th century.

I believe you are right that the industry is not in the bad place, and a lot of depends though on the geographical location. In my city(around 0.5-1mil size in EE) for example there's a significant loss of craftsmen of all trades(from mending wool clothing to shoe repair/ tbh even a good dry cleaner is not easy to find these days). Though lately we are getting more bespoke options recently with new places opening, which while puzzling(nobody is wearing suits nowadays in my city unless forced at gun point) is a positive. Maybe positive indicator for the future.

To be honest this "loss" is double edged sword - if old crafts, services and vintage clothing were more appreciated it would again much more expensive to make/buy anything decent by simple law of supply and demand(though bigger market for sure would have some advantages as well). Right now I can buy some rtw, I could afford best bespoke around here, vintage items are for peanuts, including some incredible quality designer pieces from 90s for my wife. That's possible because people do not care about quality/ do not research defunct brand and prefer fast fashion. Yes, we probably could have more luxurious items and better craftsmen, but some of us would be squeezed out of the market or at least have smaller wardrobes, because luxury is by default is labor intensive, comparative and exclusionary(like aforementioned bespoke). So we are also not in a bad place.

These crafts ebb and flow as well though. It’s all just change. I’m sure somewhere if you go back far enough there were people complaining nobody worked with bronze anymore when the Iron Age kicked in.

But that being said we live in a really wonderful time with a lot of flexibility to largely wear what you please, have accessibility to goods from around the world relatively easily and affordable quality items. There’s a leveling and democratization of all this stuff within fashion out there. Sure, fast fashion is a scourge for a lot of reasons but a loss of the existence of quality items isn’t one of them and isn’t really what we are talking about anyways.

 

[wojt]

But that being said we live in a really wonderful time with a lot of flexibility to largely wear what you please, have accessibility to goods from around the world relatively easily and affordable quality items. There’s a leveling and democratization of all this stuff within fashion out there. Sure, fast fashion is a scourge for a lot of reasons but a loss of the existence of quality items isn’t one of them and isn’t really what we are talking about anyways.

I am sympathetic to what you are saying. Moreover I am not sure, societies should by large invest their money in luxury items and clothing. However, there's a thing or two with the bolded that's been bothering me

- We no longer can draw a line between "fast fashion" and low-mid level luxury brands(this holds doubly true for women's wear). If you think bespoke declined, see how many fashion houses nowadays offer haute couture and what % of their income it is. Sure even in womenswear there are brands that retain their character/quality but outside of few luxury brands like say Johnstons of Elgin and handful of menswear specialty, brands by large are downgrading to meet the spending patterns of modern customer. If you look at big fashion houses, they largely are making worse clothing/worse materials/less complex designs that are cheaper to make. These big bucks spent are in RTW luxury which is more often than not subpar to what the same brands made in 80s/90s.

- Spending patters of modern customer have changed, I think we are familiar with the data from this graph, or data that largely correspond to the trend.

- Superior technology/global economy and outsourcing does offset this to an extent. Though largely with human endeavor I believe excellence is where the focus is. You have larger pool of talent, more resources.

To sum up, focus is out of aesthetics and quality of clothing. One could argue we are in dark ages of clothing/style and I'd even risk saying aesthetic art as well(I summon any Roger Scruton's book on beauty/aesthetics). This is completely subjective of course and I am willing to admit that. But I think we are in age of comfort now. Comfort trumps all.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, I will not whine about buying museum grade West/East Germany pottery for less than people are buying some basic cheap vase from IKEA, or buying vintage pieces of menswear/womenswear for 10-50 bucks, that can be still used today, but with the quality rarely available now outside of top brands/makers(For womens clothing especially as quality declines year by year).

Sure it's sad to see those dad-bods in tight t-shirts and women caring so little how they look(clothing wise, I think there's a big progress in how both men and women age/take care of bodies, makeup, cosmetics etc - perhaps this is where we are spending more these days?), but that means we here will get the good stuff cheaper - if that's any consolation. I am perfectly happy with spending the remainder of disposal income on travel and whisky. At least that's my outlook, cheers.