Luxury clothes of the past

[Rowyourboat]

I think it's perception of value. Drake's sells some items at a higher price than what you can get from the maker I.e. the William Lockie sweaters. In other cases, people have budgets or realize that the Loro Piana markup is insanely high vs something like Malo or Cruciani.

I think in the past products had less of a markup, and you couldn't comparison shop as much.

 

[Thin White Duke]

A few knee jerk reactions:

I think there is a division in the very wealthy between what we might call ‘older money’ where people are informed and manage to look tasteful and classy, and ‘nouveau riche’ who are the people splattered with logos wanting the whole world to hear their clothes shout “look at me! I made it!”

I count myself among those people who may have a shifting ceiling for how much I’d pay for a certain item. When I discovered JMM sunglasses I thought $600 was insane for a pair of shades. I now own 12 pairs. But if I won the lotto every week for a year and literally burned $100 bills to light my exclusive cigars, there’s no way I’d ever pay $350 (in 1980 money that’s what? $500 now?) for a pair of socks.

I think some people spend their disposable money in a way that makes it obvious that they have spent a lot of money. That may not be so easy to do with a tailored suit but can be easily achieved with a PP or Richard Mille watch or those balenciaga eyesores.

The internet helps with democratising style. I was at the Brickell Mall in Miami and in the Kiton shop there was a dummy with cobalt blue sneakers which I liked the look of. A quick internet search and I got a pair of adidas court vantage - same style, same colour, fraction of the price.

 

[DapperDan15]

I think there is a division in the very wealthy between what we might call ‘older money’ where people are informed and manage to look tasteful and classy, and ‘nouveau riche’ who are the people splattered with logos wanting the whole world to hear their clothes shout “look at me! I made it!”

Yes, and I find it hard to believe that the people wearing flashy clothes and logos represent a democratization of luxury. The price of a Cartier watch is still too high for the average person, even if that customer can now look them up online. Is a brand that's flaunted instead of hidden really less status-driven?

 

[DapperDan15]

Even on SF, we literally have an "Official Drakes Knock-Off Thread" asking where one can find look-alike products at lower prices, among other endless questions all over this forum asking "where can I find <insert product> cheaper"? And this is among a set of shoppers that is generally willing to stomach higher prices than average.

WSJ reported in 2019 (this might be paywalled) that in 2018, the average American purchased 68 garments a year, about 5 times more than in 1980. They also reported that according to a 2015 study by a British charity, on average a new item of clothing is worn only 7 times before being discarded. The exact numbers can be disputed but I think most people would agree on these trends. Just peruse the affiliate vendor threads and you will quickly identify many people who seem to be buying multiple new items every season from that one vendor alone (multiply by all of the other possible places they could be shopping from). So if the average American is buying 68 new garments annually and tossing most of them after 7 wears, not hard to understand why the market for higher priced/higher quality garments has dried up.

Another interesting poll reported that 2/3 of Americans said they'd buy a $50 pair of pants made in another country over an $85 pair made in the US of the same fabric and design. " Very interesting to me was the finding that "People in higher earning households earning more than $100,000 a year are no less likely than lower-income Americans to say they’d go for the lower price."

So people are now more focused on quantity rather than quality, assuming the WSJ numbers are of items that aren't 5 times the cost. I wonder if this is a psychological drive to collect.

 

[epsilon22]

I think there are two separate things here.

One being nerds/enthusiasts from a demographic that previously didn't have access to these bespoke craftspeople for whatever reasons now being able to tap into them (or even develop interest in the first place) due to the democratization of information related to these crafts thanks to the internet and social media. I think this is a good thing for the craft both due to the increased exposure to prospective customers and also prospective craftspeople who might grow interested in joining the trade. Sure, someone who got interested in bespoke suits from seeing an instagram post would probably have to save for months and place one order per year, vs someone buying dozens of suits a year just because their family has been patronizing the same shop for a century, but I can't see how that would be a negative other than for some people who think they lost their club's exclusivity.

The other one being people who developed interest in very flashy (and very expensive) things to show off their wealth, which has probably grown substantially over the past few decades due to the growth in wealth from new industries (especially tech) and developing countries. I won't pretend to understand why people would want to wear something that looks like a trash bag plastered with ugly logos all over, but who am I to judge their tastes. Flaunting wealth isn't even new thing, our species has been doing it for millennia through different means: colors, precious materials, and now flashy logos have just joined the club. Whether this is a good thing or not, well, I have no idea.

 

[ladislav.jancik]

Some of these tailors trained overseas with the Italian or Savile Row top tailors, and they went to live in backwater countries catering to the top end of town. There was no taking photos of clothes or boasting about tailors, instead it was always discrete and for those in the know. These tailors could only serve a limited clientele, and few knew of these artisans, and none have ever been mentioned online, but they all charged Savile Row prices. Even today there is a tailor in my country who trained at Savile Row and with top Italian tailors who is very accomplished, yet there is no mention of him online, and no photos exist of his work, but he happily goes serving the top end of town discretely. He doesn't need forums and instagram, and to post online about these things would be considered bad taste. I understand he is possibly the last of the great tailors in my country, and people's lips stay shut - one doesn't go broadcasting these things. Some of the best shoemakers in my country never advertised, but they were highly trained, had no shop presence, and have never been mentioned on the internet; loyal clients always kept them a secret, and forums never knew of any of these people. People in the know keep these secrets to the grave.

I don’t understand this approach nowadays. On one hand, these exclusive tailors trained with the best from Savile Row or Italy, and on the other hand, they consider any self-promotion on social media to be a display of bad taste, even though the top Savile Row and Italian tailoring salons have no issue with it at all. This elitist attitude results in new potential clients outside their selected social circle never hearing about them, and if the descendants of their current clients lose interest in their services, they might as well close their salons and workshops.

 

[DapperDan15]

I don’t understand this approach nowadays. On one hand, these exclusive tailors trained with the best from Savile Row or Italy, and on the other hand, they consider any self-promotion on social media to be a display of bad taste, even though the top Savile Row and Italian tailoring salons have no issue with it at all. This elitist attitude results in new potential clients outside their selected social circle never hearing about them, and if the descendants of their current clients lose interest in their services, they might as well close their salons and workshops.

I think those old houses also used to operate by the word-of-mouth model.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

I don’t understand this approach nowadays. On one hand, these exclusive tailors trained with the best from Savile Row or Italy, and on the other hand, they consider any self-promotion on social media to be a display of bad taste, even though the top Savile Row and Italian tailoring salons have no issue with it at all. This elitist attitude results in new potential clients outside their selected social circle never hearing about them, and if the descendants of their current clients lose interest in their services, they might as well close their salons and workshops.

These exclusive tailors I talk about do all the work themselves, so they don't need to extra business or to promote themselves, and they certainly don't want or need internet educated people asking them pesky questions. Industry people tell me, since the forums there has been an explosion of faux experts annoying the heck out of numerous artisans and sellers of fine wears. The industry people don't like the internet people because they don't think they know what they are talking about, and they are considered time wasters. There are various threads asking about bespoke tailors in my country, but very few have ever been to them, yet these people recommend tailors they have never used before. You see, these internet people are not the target audience in my country, it is the local people introduced through word of mouth that provide all the business. These are the people that know what they want and order without making nuisances of themselves. Internet people ask too many questions and over complicate things because they have too many internet facts in their heads. The local people just order what they want and let the tailor do the rest.

I don't want to be taken as being snarky about this because l respect people's choices so l am not worried what people do. Many artisans online seem to love the internet people, so good luck to them. There are also people who probably want to show off their things on the internet and talk like experts (social media culture). It takes all types, and we all do things differently.

I remember years ago a George Cleverley person saying to me "those people who post on the internet, they are not our type of people". It really is like that where l come from too. These forums are like a different universe to me...different rules and anything goes. I think in the early days many people got doors slammed in their face when they brought their `forum talk' to the artisans, but l think many have gotten used to the fact that this is the way things are done now, and some like Savile Row even welcome it.

 

[Ilkless]

These exclusive tailors I talk about do all the work themselves, so they don't need to extra business or to promote themselves, and they certainly don't want or need internet educated people asking them pesky questions. Industry people tell me, since the forums there has been an explosion of faux experts annoying the heck out of numerous artisans and sellers of fine wears. The industry people don't like the internet people because they don't think they know what they are talking about, and they are considered time wasters. There are various threads asking about bespoke tailors in my country, but very few have ever been to them, yet these people recommend tailors they have never used before. You see, these internet people are not the target audience in my country, it is the local people introduced through word of mouth that provide all the business. These are the people that know what they want and order without making nuisances of themselves. Internet people ask too many questions and over complicate things because they have too many internet facts in their heads. The local people just order what they want and let the tailor do the rest.

I don't want to be taken as being snarky about this because l respect people's choices so l am not worried what people do. Many artisans online seem to love the internet people, so good luck to them. There are also people who probably want to show off their things on the internet and talk like experts (social media culture). It takes all types, and we all do things differently.

I remember years ago a George Cleverley person saying to me "those people who post on the internet, they are not our type of people". It really is like that where l come from too. These forums are like a different universe to me...different rules and anything goes. I think in the early days many people got doors slammed in their face when they brought their `forum talk' to the artisans, but l think many have gotten used to the fact that this is the way things are done now, and some like Savile Row even welcome it.

Please, "forum-educated" users are what have been driving crafters to reach higher standards of handwork and a distinctive housestyle faster. It's what has lifted up B&Tailor, Assisi, Ciccio and Corcos higher and faster in a mutually reinforcing relationship.

Had Jeffrey Diduch not wrote online of the machine-padded work some Row tailors saw fit to fob off to clients a decade back, those in this world you speak of, of unyielding deference to craftspeople, of asking no questions, would have let this decline in craft pass by unnoticed.

No need to feel threatened that guys like Assisi can make suits of unimpeachable craft and cut while engaging tastefully on social media.

 

[DapperDan15]

Please, "forum-educated" users are what have been driving crafters to reach higher standards of handwork and a distinctive housestyle faster. It's what has lifted up B&Tailor, Assisi, Ciccio and Corcos higher and faster in a mutually reinforcing relationship.

Had Jeffrey Diduch not wrote online of the machine-padded work some Row tailors saw fit to fob off to clients a decade back, those in this world you speak of, of unyielding deference to craftspeople, of asking no questions, would have let this decline in craft pass by unnoticed.

No need to feel threatened that guys like Assisi can make suits of unimpeachable craft and cut while engaging tastefully on social media.

I don't think he's talking about total deference to the tailors. There does seem to be a lot of fake internet "experts" out there who just parrot what they read and don't have actual experience with those tailors or wearing tailored clothes.

I also read that article a while back. If i remember correctly, that maker was actually horrified that such work had been sent out, and said that it wasn't their policy. So I don't think that one mistake is enough to besmirch the reputation of Savile Row tailoring as a whole.

 

[othertravel]

Which article was it?

 

[Ilkless]

I don't think he's talking about total deference to the tailors. There does seem to be a lot of fake internet "experts" out there who just parrot what they read and don't have actual experience with those tailors or wearing tailored clothes.

I also read that article a while back. If i remember correctly, that maker was actually horrified that such work had been sent out, and said that it wasn't their policy. So I don't think that one mistake is enough to besmirch the reputation of Savile Row tailoring as a whole.

Yes, of course the dunning-kruger types are an issue, but this distracts from this broader rising tide that has raised all ships, where learning has been democratised and accelerated

 

[epsilon22]

These exclusive tailors I talk about do all the work themselves, so they don't need to extra business or to promote themselves, and they certainly don't want or need internet educated people asking them pesky questions. Industry people tell me, since the forums there has been an explosion of faux experts annoying the heck out of numerous artisans and sellers of fine wears. The industry people don't like the internet people because they don't think they know what they are talking about, and they are considered time wasters. There are various threads asking about bespoke tailors in my country, but very few have ever been to them, yet these people recommend tailors they have never used before. You see, these internet people are not the target audience in my country, it is the local people introduced through word of mouth that provide all the business. These are the people that know what they want and order without making nuisances of themselves. Internet people ask too many questions and over complicate things because they have too many internet facts in their heads. The local people just order what they want and let the tailor do the rest.

I don't want to be taken as being snarky about this because l respect people's choices so l am not worried what people do. Many artisans online seem to love the internet people, so good luck to them. There are also people who probably want to show off their things on the internet and talk like experts (social media culture). It takes all types, and we all do things differently.

I remember years ago a George Cleverley person saying to me "those people who post on the internet, they are not our type of people". It really is like that where l come from too. These forums are like a different universe to me...different rules and anything goes. I think in the early days many people got doors slammed in their face when they brought their `forum talk' to the artisans, but l think many have gotten used to the fact that this is the way things are done now, and some like Savile Row even welcome it.

I mean, yeah sure, but you can't really complain about people dressing sloppily (by Western classical menswear standards) while wanting exclusivity. The vast majority of people who were born in recent decades probably didn't even come from the Western world, let alone from families who can teach them about formal/businesswear and introduce them to these tailors.

For every child born to a family who patronize the likes of Cleverley, there's probably dozens if not hundreds born to families where the father doesn't even know how to tie a necktie, not least in places where Western menswear wasn't even the norm for formal/business dressing until recently. If you think it's okay to slam the doors on these people for whom the internet is probably the only source of information about dress codes and menswear, then you have no right to complain about how most people only wear hoodies, sweatpants, and sneakers today.

 

[Thin White Duke]

These exclusive tailors I talk about do all the work themselves, so they don't need to extra business or to promote themselves, and they certainly don't want or need internet educated people asking them pesky questions. Industry people tell me, since the forums there has been an explosion of faux experts annoying the heck out of numerous artisans and sellers of fine wears. The industry people don't like the internet people because they don't think they know what they are talking about, and they are considered time wasters. There are various threads asking about bespoke tailors in my country, but very few have ever been to them, yet these people recommend tailors they have never used before. You see, these internet people are not the target audience in my country, it is the local people introduced through word of mouth that provide all the business. These are the people that know what they want and order without making nuisances of themselves. Internet people ask too many questions and over complicate things because they have too many internet facts in their heads. The local people just order what they want and let the tailor do the rest.

I don't want to be taken as being snarky about this because l respect people's choices so l am not worried what people do. Many artisans online seem to love the internet people, so good luck to them. There are also people who probably want to show off their things on the internet and talk like experts (social media culture). It takes all types, and we all do things differently.

I remember years ago a George Cleverley person saying to me "those people who post on the internet, they are not our type of people". It really is like that where l come from too. These forums are like a different universe to me...different rules and anything goes. I think in the early days many people got doors slammed in their face when they brought their `forum talk' to the artisans, but l think many have gotten used to the fact that this is the way things are done now, and some like Savile Row even welcome it.

Is this about green leather breast wallets again?

 

[Ilkless]

I mean, yeah sure, but you can't really complain about people dressing sloppily (by Western classical menswear standards) while wanting exclusivity. The vast majority of people who were born in recent decades probably didn't even come from the Western world, let alone from families who can teach them about formal/businesswear and introduce them to these tailors.

For every child born to a family who patronize the likes of Cleverley, there's probably dozens if not hundreds born to families where the father doesn't even know how to tie a necktie, not least in places where Western menswear wasn't even the norm for formal/business dressing until recently. If you think it's okay to slam the doors on these people for whom the internet is probably the only source of information about dress codes and menswear, then you have no right to complain about how most people only wear hoodies, sweatpants, and sneakers today.

And the thing is several of this new crop of Internet-weaned makers and alumni of legacy makers that went independent proves excellence in craft and taste need not be only achieved by cloistered artisans. Yohei Fukuda, Templeman, Hiro Yanagimachi, B& Tailor, the slew of Row alumni that set up alone in recent years et al. are very inconvenient data points for OP to acknowledge.