Lets talk about COFFEE

[Harold falcon]

New coffee shop in town, they give one the option of how to prepare coffee, French press, aero, drip, etc .Also it appears quite popular with the college girls.

 

[A Y]

I've also been meaning to try Dragonfly

https://dragonfly-coffee-roasters.myshopify.com/

https://www.coffeereview.com/review/kenya-karindundu-aa-small-lot-reserve/

I've had that, and it's pretty good but not great. I don't understand Dragonfly: I've basically tried everything Ken reviews highly from them, and it's always been blah for me. I've had other things he's recommended highly (including his no. 1 pick a couple of years ago of a Kenya from Bird Rock), and loved them, but Dragonfly has always been blah for me.

Having said that, the Kenyans seem to be having a stellar season, so it's hard to go wrong with them. The Howell Mamuto AA from a couple months ago was transcendent.

re. roasting coffee at home. It's cool, and something I've been wanting to try, but the skill of the roaster is important too. I've had the same beans from the same farm harvested the same season and milled the same from two different roasters (Dragonfly and one of my local roasters), and the Dragonfly underperformed as usual, while the local roaster hit it out of the park. Both were brewed 1 week after roast. It was one of the best recent coffees I've had.

Also the French have terrible coffee. Possibly the worst in Europe. Maybe things are changing as outside coffee practices leak into the country.

 

[dieworkwear]

re. roasting coffee at home. It's cool, and something I've been wanting to try, but the skill of the roaster is important too.

All I do is roast.

 

[am55]

re. roasting coffee at home. It's cool, and something I've been wanting to try, but the skill of the roaster is important too. I've had the same beans from the same farm harvested the same season and milled the same from two different roasters (Dragonfly and one of my local roasters), and the Dragonfly underperformed as usual, while the local roaster hit it out of the park. Both were brewed 1 week after roast. It was one of the best recent coffees I've had.

I think the point is not to outdo the great roasters but a. rapidly get to a point where you're better than many roasters (yes, sad, but Sturgeon's Law applies) and b. understand what you like, and how it happens, better. I was quite surprised just how many variables go into a good roast. For example I'll reserve some varietals for high humidity days, or will speed roast some and take it very slow with others. Then you can have good conversations with professionals and understand better what might have gone wrong or just what you like (how to get it).

It reminds me of David Hober's article/challenge on hand sewing your own rolled edge on a pocket square, or more generally any alterations - after you've tried you are more understanding of prices charged by good professionals...

Also the French have terrible coffee. Possibly the worst in Europe. Maybe things are changing as outside coffee practices leak into the country.

A few urbanites now have the options they didn't before, just as with most big cities around the world, but my experience has been that there is zero interest within the "normal" population, and even a slight reluctance to go to these places when I suggest them to family and friends. We are far from say, Sydney where everyone knows a few places and Starbucks failed to take hold.

 

[am55]

The other thing about the same farm: it might be branded the same but it might not be the same beans, depending on the buyer. Think Uniqlo supima vs "not supima" cotton... An example is the Hartmann black honey process beans which I've only seen sold by Andy at coffeesnobs.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

I think a big problem in NYC with coffee is most of the roasters are local and they all trained each other over the years. Many of them roast at this big outfit in Brooklyn, where you literally rent a roaster for your needs. This phenomenon not only has NYC roasters pitching in and buying the same beans in large lots, but also roasting them the same way. This is why all coffee is more or less the same here.

 

[joshuadowen]

FWIW

What you are describing isn't isolated to NYC, but is an industry problem in general. Roasters under a certain size can't afford to really manage their own sourcing, and so they end up "spot buying" coffee from a small group of importers who are willing to work in small volumes. The result is that microroasters all over the country are buying the same exact green coffee as each other.

I'm not sure I'd even characterize this as a problem, so much as a reality that most consumers are misled about. The truth is that coffee roasting isn't like beer brewing. Microbreweries make sense to me because so much of it is about taking commodity ingredients and getting creative with the actual brewing process. In coffee, sourcing of good green is SO MUCH MORE important than roasting, and most small specialty roasters are all sourcing the same stuff.

Most small roasters have nothing unique to offer consumers and have no reason to exist. I think it's a bubble that's happening right now because everyone who runs a high quality cafe thinks they need to be in the roasting business to attract consumers. I think that it will begin correcting itself over the next few years.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Yeah, that all makes sense. I am baffled as to why there aren't cafes out here that sell beans that aren't roasted here. At first I thought it was a money thing having to buy the beans vs. roast, but the price of real estate here is stupid and you have to hire a roaster, who was taught to roast a certain way and on and on. It is a shame that anywhere you walk into these days you're drinking the same cup of coffee. Even other cities I feel have more variety in styles though. In Seattle there are tons of different roast profiles and such. Doesn't exist here. You have Starbucks and then everything else.

I think roasting is a whole different beast than many people imagine. It isn't just "cook these beans at 400 degrees for 15 minutes" however I feel like all of these local roasters playing around put out a lot of garbage/suboptimal beans not having any "real" instruction. If I were opening a cafe I am from the mindset that there is probably somebody else roasting coffee that knows a lot more than I do so why mess with it.

 

[joshuadowen]

Yes. Being a small cafe and deciding to start roasting is almost never economically preferable. Unless one is going to invest heavily in the wholesale business, roasting is generally a money suck.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Honestly it seems like the formula in NYC for a successful coffee shop has less to do with the coffee and more to do with ample seating, wifi, and outlets.

 

[am55]

Yes. Being a small cafe and deciding to start roasting is almost never economically preferable. Unless one is going to invest heavily in the wholesale business, roasting is generally a money suck.

Could buy in a roasted bean for the main customer and then small batch the interesting stuff in the back. I've so far been unable to secure a cup of Esmeralda from my local roaster who sells them out within hours of letting us know he's done a batch. The $400 investment is recouped in 20-30 cups of geisha (or a Corretto for the cheapest reliable large batch method, although it takes time)

Sourcing is important but I think the roast is at least equally important. I have ruined perfectly good beans then followed up with a great tasting batch. Same beans different process and decisions. Now I follow a number of roast profiles when testing out a new bean to figure out how it works best (including tastings at daily intervals to spot the peak).

The NYC situation reminds me of the sushi scene in Singapore where all the restaurants get their Tsukiji fish air flown by the same supplier. Sometimes the economies of scale and experience are too great. However green beans are such a cheap, durable and easily shipped commodity I do not quite understand what is so hard about sourcing some...

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Well Joshua said it above, in order to import beans you have to buy a lot at a time. From what I understand this doesn't mean a couple thousand dollars, closer to six figures.

 

[am55]

Well Joshua said it above, in order to import beans you have to buy a lot at a time. From what I understand this doesn't mean a couple thousand dollars, closer to six figures.

Again can't speak for the US (although surely being closer to the farms physically...), but if you are in Europe for example you can get 60kg of Panama, or 15kg of geishas for 600-800 EUR or even 15kg competition grade geisha for 1,400 EUR which is a bit of a capital outlay but still affordable especially if split between a few roasters. In Australia coffeesnobs (amongst others) will sell it to you in 1kg for geisha/Yemen or 2.5-3kg bags for other varietals (which is how I got to try so many at home) so you can really offer a rotating selection all year round.

Let's say you're careful with the shots and have wastage during roasting (I have to admit on the $100+/kg stuff, including a disappointing blue mountain, I've been a little twitchy) and do doubles etc. and average 60 cups per kg, you're looking at a raw material cost per cup in the 1.3-1.5 EUR range for a cup the customer expects at 10-15 EUR/cup (and usually gets stale, badly roasted, etc.). If it sells out in hours in Singapore it will surely do so as well in New York.

Leaves the roasting, well, if you're indeed doing competition grade geisha in a Corretto, enjoy the smell I guess, but at 800g per batch you can get through the whole 15kg lot in a day or two, or take your time over a year and see how weather/resting and drying affect it.

Just got some (roasted) pink bourbon from Colombia, it seems to be another hyped brand bean, let's see how it goes tomorrow.

 

[joshuadowen]

Wasn't trying to imply that roasting wasn't important, just that it's relatively less important than the brewing process is in the world of craft beer. A lot of the self-mythologizing that small roasters do tries to treat it as analogous, but it isn't.

In the world of craft beer, the brewing process is the center of all value creation. You could give five different brewers the exact same ingredients and they could brew five VERY different beers.

Different roasters might put slightly different spins on the same coffee, but these differences will have a very small effect on end-user experience as compared to all of the other variables in the supply chain (innate qualities of the green coffee, care with which it was stored and transported both before and after roast, brewing methodology and recipes).

It's also worth noting that the self-mythologizing of the roaster as prime value-creator within the coffee supply chain supports continued colonial issues within the industry. It's a way of erasing all the value created by non-whites from coffee-producing countries and reassigning it to mostly-white roasters in consumer countries.

 

[am55]

I appreciate your point of view re: mythology, however on my end it was simply a matter of hitting limits quickly and realising that even with ample experimentation and years of practice I will never reach the heights that some of the better roasters I know have (this is also true of drawing anything, writing, and to a lesser extent - I'm better at it - classical music).

Does it matter? On a bog standard Latam washed, or even a messily sorted (with actual stones!) and pungent Yemeni, I personally think not. However what I do with a geisha and what the aptly named Geisha Coffee here in Singapore does with a geisha are fundamentally different drinks even with the same bean. No matter how careful I am I cannot draw such a perfect balance of tea-like flavours so cleanly. Mine is never on the peak of the bean, the window is very tight. And I am limited by equipment and weather (being outdoors) in being able to do a very even roast which you need to do with such a tight window on a well sorted bean.