Leather Quality and Properties

[DesB3rd]

So how old is an optimum calf?

Are we looking at some happy mid-point where the leather is both flawless and soft but has had some opportunity to fill-outhank and toughen?

(N.B. this comes back to my former theme. There's some controvery in the UK about male dairy cows getting bolted, and sent for pet food, as soon as the mother is giving milk. I.e. dairy dies v. young or old...)

 

[Belfaborac]

I'm no expert at all where leather is is concerned, I just have a number of relatives who own, or used to own, cattle and sheep. Parts of the family have been in the business for at least a couple of hundred years and used to be among the suppliers of hide to the tanneries, while such still existed here.

Anyway, I know of no way to reliably discern whether a given leather is cow or real calf. The latter is certainly thinner and more supple to start with, but the tanning process will likely reduce the differences. I assume that the more expensive the shoes, the more likely they are to be made from calf, as cow is vastly more plentiful and therefore likely to be much less costly. Of course, that's a somewhat less than useful insight, since I have no clue how much one must pay to be guaranteed to get shoes in real calf, or if any such line can be drawn at all.

 

[DWFII]

In the leather and shoe Trades what is considered "calf-skin" can be quite variable.

In his book Textbook of Footwear Manufacture, the National Trade Press (UK), 1953, J. H. THORNTON, M.A., F.B.S.I., describes a calf as

an animal that is still milk fed or has not been out to pasture long enough for the skin to become too coarse.

But he also says:

The ‘spread’ or area of a calf-skin may vary considerably since the definition given above (i.e. milk fed) is not always closely followed. Skins from 5 sq. ft. up to as much as 18 to 20 sq. ft. have all been described as calf-skins if the general standard of quality is suitable.

He goes on to say that regardless of age or size, the way the animal was fed, where and how it lived, the gender, the presence or absence of introduced hormones and chemicals, as well as the methods of tannage--structure, substance grain, etc., are more important in determining the suitability for high end footwear than age.

 

[Belfaborac]

I'm simply going by what I've read on industry websites; tanneries, leather industry organisations, etc. Presumably they're the ones who'd know what definitions they themselves use.

 

[DWFII]

What are you saying here? That presumption, speculation, and third hand information is sufficient? Reliable? Adequate? Trumps first hand experience and objective knowledge?

I wasn't arguing with you, I was simply making an observation that is objectively "closer to the source" than second generation, and third hand agricultural remembrances.

Thornton was head of the Boot and shoe department at the Northampton College of Technology. At one time considered the elder statesman of British shoemaking.

If we are to presume anything, presumably he knew what he was talking about.

And for what it is worth, I've been making boots and shoes for over 45 years--all first hand experience and repeatedly validated knowledge which I share here on SF and which is largely consistent with and in agreement with Thornton (what an unthinkable coincidence!).

 

[Belfaborac]

What are you saying here?

Exactly what I wrote. None of which is contradicted in any way by your quotes.

 

[Zapasman]

Anyone with experience with kidskin for linning? Would you recomend it? I might go with it and wonder if it's worth it. Opinions? Thanks.

 

[DWFII]

Anyone with experience with kidskin for linning? Would you recomend it? I might go with it and wonder if it's worth it. Opinions? Thanks.

I've never used it for lining and reason is that I don't consider it dense enough or strong enough to function as a lining.

Back in the day most women's shoes were made of kidskin...pumps in particular...(most women's shoe may still be made of kidskin for all I know) but it peeled. In fact, that peeling was almost the single most distinguishing characteristic.

 

[ntempleman]

Glacé kid is used fairly often to line the counter if the client requests coloured lining, but it’s far from ideal as a lining. The glaze rubs off fairly quickly and the leather tends to wear through. You wouldn’t line the vamp with it (except for an occasional wear wholecut court shoe).

 

[AWu]

Allow me to side track a bit the discussion right here :-

Any difference in terms of breaking in leather shoes and suede shoes - in terms of the feel/ space difference a before after comparison... I'm getting a pair of suede (unlined) and in between 2 sizes - larger one seems fitting good while the 0.5 smaller one may give a good fit after break in and afraid the larger pair will be a tad loose then...

Any experience to share gents?
Much appreciated

 

[DWFII]

Glacé kid is used fairly often to line the counter if the client requests coloured lining, but it’s far from ideal as a lining. The glaze rubs off fairly quickly and the leather tends to wear through. You wouldn’t line the vamp with it (except for an occasional wear wholecut court shoe).

^+1

Finishes/"glazes" like that are really just paint jobs. And they tend to be fairly heavy on kid, as well.

Such finishes are occlusive...if that's of any concern to anyone but persnickety old shoemakers...which is contrary to everything a lining is supposed to be and another reason lining the whole shoe with kid is seldom done.

 

[Zapasman]

I've never used it for lining and reason is that I don't consider it dense enough or strong enough to function as a lining.

Back in the day most women's shoes were made of kidskin...pumps in particular...(most women's shoe may still be made of kidskin for all I know) but it peeled. In fact, that peeling was almost the single most distinguishing characteristic.

Glacé kid is used fairly often to line the counter if the client requests coloured lining, but it’s far from ideal as a lining. The glaze rubs off fairly quickly and the leather tends to wear through. You wouldn’t line the vamp with it (except for an occasional wear wholecut court shoe).

^+1

Finishes/"glazes" like that are really just paint jobs. And they tend to be fairly heavy on kid, as well.

Such finishes are occlusive...if that's of any concern to anyone but persnickety old shoemakers...which is contrary to everything a lining is supposed to be and another reason lining the whole shoe with kid is seldom done.

Thank you both once again for your instructive answers. I see the problems in the long run. In fact I just wanted to have 1 pair of shoes in racing green leather for the lining for the same price and for the heck of it. However I was unsure of the quality and resistance of such a "fancy " leather decisión. I love good natural veg tanned leather for lining specially coming from GG, so no need to change it.
Happy new year to you and to the rest of the people here. Cheers

 

[ThunderMarch]

@DWFII
I live in the tropics, where the weather is mostly warm to hot and very very humid.

Recently, after a particularly long stretch of wet, rainy and cooler weather, a number of my shoes were hit by mould.

Interestingly, I noticed that shoes which had been stored away in a cabinet were unscathed, while those left on open racks were affected. I am guessing that the cabinet helped to isolate the shoes from the ambient increased humidity.

Also, it seemed like it was the outsoles and heel lifts that were most affected, and the uppers were relatively spared.

Considering the difference between outsoles and uppers, the difference in the tannage would be obvious to me (veg vs mostly chrome).

Do you think veg tans are more susceptible to mould attacks? And actually, my main question would be, how do you generally handle shoes that have been affected as such, and what would you advise in terms of prevention?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DWFII]

@DWFII
I live in the tropics, where the weather is mostly warm to hot and very very humid.

Recently, after a particularly long stretch of wet, rainy and cooler weather, a number of my shoes were hit by mould.

Interestingly, I noticed that shoes which had been stored away in a cabinet were unscathed, while those left on open racks were affected. I am guessing that the cabinet helped to isolate the shoes from the ambient increased humidity.

Also, it seemed like it was the outsoles and heel lifts that were most affected, and the uppers were relatively spared.

Considering the difference between outsoles and uppers, the difference in the tannage would be obvious to me (veg vs mostly chrome).

Do you think veg tans are more susceptible to mould attacks? And actually, my main question would be, how do you generally handle shoes that have been affected as such, and what would you advise in terms of prevention?

Thanks in advance.

Well, I don't live in the tropics so I've never really had to deal with this problem on a continuing basis.

Generally speaking, keeping the storage area well ventilated is one major step towards prevention. Keeping your shoes clean is another. Even excess conditioner can feed mold and other organisms. Be vigilant esp. in wet weather. Moving to Arizona would probably put a stop to this nonsense, toot sweet.

To treat...wipe the mold off. Wash with ph balanced baby shampoo or Lexol ph. Dry thoroughly, even using the low setting on a hair dryer if the sun refuses to shine.

Move to Arizona.

Seriously...mold gets into everything in wet climates...that's just the hand that you've been dealt. Be mindful of that fact and check your shoes often.

Sorry I can't help more....

 

[ThunderMarch]

Thanks @DWFII, a good tip on the shampoo and Lexol. I never knew that. Will give it a try.

A move to a somewhere dry does sound like a jolly good idea, though.