Leather Quality and Properties

[DWFII]



Thank you DWF,

Yes it is a Jotel, I also have a Ulefos and a couple of  Morso stoves, I am up in the hills, and we are further north than Moscow and we regularly have -20c in winter.

Hi Garland, I am no longer able to buy the 1786 Russian reindeer, I think that Cleverleys has a lock on most of what is left.

I have a Jotel as well. Nice stoves.

Horween...through A.A. Crack...offers a hatch grain that looks pretty authentic...from the highway, at least. The Horween, unlike other versions I've seen/used, would be a veg or a retan...so just that much closer to "right." That said, it is bovine, AFAIK.

FWIW, I have never used it.

 

[casemaker]

Won't deal with Crack, had severe quality problems recently, and weird customer service ( lack of ) That saying, I did have a 'mock reindeer' back in the 90's



But I feel that if I cannot get the 'real thing', then just move on. I am happy with the repeatable quality of JE Sedgwicks bridle leathers.

 

[DWFII]



Won't deal with Crack, had severe quality problems recently, and weird customer service ( lack of ) That saying, I did have a 'mock reindeer' back in the 90's

But I feel that if I cannot get the 'real thing', then just move on. I am happy with the repeatable quality of JE Sedgwicks bridle leathers.

Och, I hate to hear that. I suspect we use different types of leathers and have different needs in terms of temper, finish and/or substance, but when it comes to shoe leathers it seems like Hermes owns near everything anymore.

 

[casemaker]

Mostly I use bridle leathers, but also calf, and pigskins when I can get them,



for lighter leathergoods, and pigskins and Goatskins for linings. Don't work with exotics often, so different trades - different leathers - different suppliers.

 

[ntempleman]

Ouvrier submissions in France are reviewed by your peers; previous winners, respected craftsmen/women invited to judge, that sort of thing. They cover <I>everything</I> too, from that chocolatier posted up previously, bakers, you name it, all judged by The French Makers that French makers look up to. It's a pretty big deal if you're French, no one does patriotic pride quite the same way as a Frenchman.

 

[ntempleman]



But starting with a rough turned last--where critical and hard to control topography / elements such as toe spring, degree in the heel, bottom radiuses, heel and tread width, and relative proportions regarding forepart length vis-a-vis heel to ball lengths, are already set for you is so very little different from starting with a stock last that it's nearly laughable to argue it. And to my mind clearly bogus as well. All those factors--toe spring, etc. are also the exact same critical and controlled topography on a stock last. No more, no less.

Well, I must say this is news to me!

The only reason you'll use a rough turn is to save you a day of rasping away to get rid of the bits of the log you'll never need, it may look vaguely last shaped but I promise you - it's not. It may have a sort of heel height and toe spring, but you'll probably get rid of a good 1/4" off the bottom anyway to get the shape you need , all that "heel to ball" stuff I read about on here I guess.

The bottom of the last is the most important bit, it's the bit I spend most of my time working on. I'd wager that it's also the part that most people using the "fit up" method seldom touch.

 

[shoefan]



Shoefan. I don't want to open up the discussion about 3D scans and lasts. Just to note that 3D copiers have done some pretty wonderful things. I have seen one in action. They can even copy things that have moving parts and the copy will have moving parts too. Have a look on the net if you haven't already come across this sort of technology. 

Yes, I am familiar with them. In fact, I saw my first 3D printer in action in 1987 (at Kodak's Rochester Park facility), way before almost anyone had heard of 3D printing. The issue/challenge is not the 3D scanning or printing technology, it is the necessary conversion of the acquired foot data into the proper last topology. All of the top last making companies (Springline, Jones & Vining, Spenle, Hormas el Arbol) have CAD/CAM systems and digital last lathes, so if you have a CAD file, they can cut you a custom last. However, as noted previously, making a last is far different than simply copying the shape of a foot and tacking on an addition at the front for the toes. So, you need intelligence and judgment (be it human and/or machine) to come up with the desired last topology. I'm not saying a digital/computer/artificial intelligence system cannot work, I am saying I don't think anyone will invest the necessary dollars to do so, as I don't believe the benefits are sufficient to create a suitable value proposition.

 

[shoefan]



Well, I must say this is news to me!

The only reason you'll use a rough turn is to save you a day of rasping away to get rid of the bits of the log you'll never need, it may look vaguely last shaped but I promise you - it's not. It may have a sort of heel height and toe spring, but you'll probably get rid of a good 1/4" off the bottom anyway to get the shape you need , all that "heel to ball" stuff I read about on here I guess.

The bottom of the last is the most important bit, it's the bit I spend most of my time working on. I'd wager that it's also the part that most people using the "fit up" method seldom touch.

Yes, this is what T. Moore told me he believes most distinguishes his lasts, i.e. the amount of shape that he puts into the last bottom.

I assume you are mainly working with fine turns, rather than rough, unless the foot is needs the extra leeway afforded by the rough turn?

Did you make your own model for your fine turns?

I assume you order your turns by specific length based on the measurements of the customer's feet?

 

[Munky]

Thanks for that, Shoefan. What you say is very interesting. Thanks, again. Munky.

 

[shoefan]



Is this not what st jean de paris already do?

http://saintjeanshoes.com/

Or is the 3d scanning all for show, and no last is actually made rather you simply get sized for an existing last

As their website give little detail, it is hard to say for certain, but ....

...it seems hard to believe they are making a custom last and then a pair of GYW shoes for 350 euros. And, as discussed earlier, how are they creating a last from your foot scan?

Most companies that have tried something like this use the scan/foot data to find a 'best fit' from their existing last library, then they make your shoes on those existing lasts. So, not truly bespoke by my definition.

 

[ntempleman]



Yes, this is what T. Moore told me he believes most distinguishes his lasts, i.e. the amount of shape that he puts into the last bottom.

I assume you are mainly working with fine turns, rather than rough, unless the foot is needs the extra leeway afforded by the rough turn?

Did you make your own model for your fine turns?

I assume you order your turns by specific length based on the measurements of the customer's feet?

That's the first time I've ever heard the term "fine turn", it's always been rough turns in my experience but it makes sense. I use a master that's similar to what I learned on, with a few changes to suit my own requirements. I keep various sizes on hand and take the one that most suits my needs - generally that equates to about 5 sizes longer, 1/4" wider at each side of the tread, 1/2" bigger all round the heel and a Herman Munster toe. About as rough as you could get really, a lot of wood comes off and I play through a few iterations as the size comes down to see what does and doesn't work - shapes and proportions and all that.

 

[shoefan]



That's the first time I've ever heard the term "fine turn", it's always been rough turns in my experience but it makes sense. I use a master that's similar to what I learned on, with a few changes to suit my own requirements. I keep various sizes on hand and take the one that most suits my needs - generally that equates to about 5 sizes longer, 1/4" wider at each side of the tread, 1/2" bigger all round the heel and a Herman Munster toe. About as rough as you could get really, a lot of wood comes off and I play through a few iterations as the size comes down to see what does and doesn't work - shapes and proportions and all that.

This picture has what I would call a rough turn in the bottom of the lathe -- more wood left on the last blank, allowing greater leeway in making the last:



The fine turns I've used/seen look more like finished lasts, but with excess wood in all the critical areas. The toe typically has 4 to 5 sizes in front of the foot.

Here is what I call a fine turned blank and a finished last from the same size blank:

 

[ntempleman]

Right, I'm on the same page now. I use things that look more like the rough turn as you call it, with excess wood everywhere - not just critical areas. There's not a bit anywhere that doesn't get altered, even the top where the block screws in gets to see my rasp. I wouldn't use one of those fine turns in any circumstances, there's just no room that I can see there to be able to express myself.

 

[ntempleman]

I guess the difference is that the rough turn in the picture is a rough turn of a finished last - the master blank that mine are turned from is a whopper.

 

[traverscao]

Job really looks painstaking.