Leather Quality and Properties

[Zapasman]

Aha! I feel satisfied with this explanation - it's hard to argue against this histological proof:

https://lordpoint.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/shell-cordovan/

It's not fascia because it's integrated with the skin and not lining a muscle.

Many thanks. Great article.

 

[Zapasman]

If water drops on the surface of shell, the moisture gets violently sucked in, and when moisture wanted to escape as part of ventilation of veg tanned hides, the sealant would trap the moisture, prevent it from escaping. If the surface was further sealed or polished with a hard polish, it gets worse.

So moisture gets easily in but does not get out?. How is possible that Travers?. I really do not see that with my shoes (more or less like calf leather, IME).

 

[VRaivio]

patrickBOOTH, I used to suffer from the same irritating tidbit, but I managed to find a way for removing water spots on shell cordovan. Simply lift the shoe under your mouth, breath out deep, and bull the spot with a metal spoon. The warmth and moisture from your breath will affect the oils and tallow, and the pressure from the spoon will do the rest. Most spots will diminish and disappear easily. It will look and feel weird, but hey, this is Styleforum!

 

[Zapasman]

3. Shell is not a dressy material. Historically, it's been used for workboots and loafers (the second having a particularly long American tradition).

It's only recently that people started using them for real dress shoes. I think it's because it's an expensive material, and people often conflate expensive with dressy/ nice.

I understand that tanned Cordovan leather have been used since the time of Visigohts and and Moors in Spain as one of the best leathers for shoes and other leather goods (maybe dressy Cordovan shoes for them ?). I understand that during the period of WWI and WWII many boots were made with this leather in Europe due to its durability.

Recently, the improvements of the techniques in the tanning process favors the use of this materials for dressy shoes (a loafer is a dressy shoe to me). Different colours, thickness, shinnig, hardness, texture, moulds to your feet among other features (I wont talk about how to care them, but for me no much work) makes me love shell.

If it is a very good material, there is shortage and the tanning process is quite laborious to reach a great appearance , then it should be expensive.

That is way I like shell and paid for the quality of the leather, although prices are too high currently. I think most people here appreciate the quality of the leather and that is what they pay for.

Ahhh, I do not have JL, EG or GG.

Just my two cents.

 

[patrickBOOTH]



Ok. In response,

The ideal kind of environment said above does not really exist.

Did you know that shell cordovan is actually a nostalgic reproduction of reversed waxed calf, albeit with horse's fiberous rump? This is part of the reason why people wanted it for dress shoes - it shines!

All vegetable tanned leathers are subjected to constant loss of moisture. This is why they are subjected more to the use of raw oils in tanning process and in caring as well. However, the delicious sounding hot stuffing process, the currying, drying, and the jack glazing is what really killed shell cordovan. The hot stuffing that Horween introduced was primarily tallows and waxes, not sufficient oil content for prolong moisture. The currying process can only last so long a period, not nearly enough to be retained after the glazing process. The glazing process compressed the surface, flattening the fibers, nappy surface, and pressed the waxes introduced during stuffing, creating a mask over the top of shell's surface. Thus, insufficient moisture, in addition to a sealant had thus made shell extremely thirsty, unlike how Horween would advertise. If water drops on the surface of shell, the moisture gets violently sucked in, and when moisture wanted to escape as part of ventilation of veg tanned hides, the sealant would trap the moisture, prevent it from escaping. If the surface was further sealed or polished with a hard polish, it gets worse.

I've seen the samples of Wolverine's shell boots (the vintage stuff, not the recent ones). Looks nothing like what we have today. It does not shine, and sports a rather porous surface.

I may agree that people get drawn into expensive stuff (money for quality), but a well finished shell cordovan does look very fit for dress shoes. It looks smooth, shiny, and it takes a polish very well indeed, unless the tannery or the shoe finisher screwed it up otherwise.

I hope we find an agreement somewhere in here.

Travers, I kind of get what you're saying about the "moisture" here. Many experiments done over the years that are actually documented discuss how too much oil and not enough moisture (meaning water) is bad for leather and actually degrades it faster. (Stambolov, T., H.A.B. van Soest and P.B. Hallebeek. "Conservation of Leather." Studies in Conservation 29 (1984): 21-31.)

Generally when tanneries talk about conditioning leather they are talking about water content, not oils and fats. Those are a part of it, but leather from a tannery leaves with a roughly 14% - 20% moisture (water) content. They have moisture meters, which are stupidly expensive to measure this. Naturally, I am considering getting one.

patrickBOOTH, I used to suffer from the same irritating tidbit, but I managed to find a way for removing water spots on shell cordovan. Simply lift the shoe under your mouth, breath out deep, and bull the spot with a metal spoon. The warmth and moisture from your breath will affect the oils and tallow, and the pressure from the spoon will do the rest. Most spots will diminish and disappear easily. It will look and feel weird, but hey, this is Styleforum!

Interesting... I have tried pushing on them hard to break the surface of the wax with slight results, but I will try your method.

 

[dieworkwear]



Interesting... I have tried pushing on them hard to break the surface of the wax with slight results, but I will try your method.

For better effect, try lifting the shoes up to your butt, letting out a deep, satisfying fart, and then rubbing them with your hands. The moisture and gas from the fart should remove any spots immediately.

 

[archetypal_yuppie]

Anyone have knowledge about buffalo calf leather (called "baby buffalo" by Lucchese)?

 

[VRaivio]

dieworkwear, I took a screen cap from you wonderfully #menswear-y post before you change your mind and erase it in a very #menswear-y way. There's something truly special in exchanging insults online.

 

[chogall]



For better effect, try lifting the shoes up to your butt, letting out a deep, satisfying fart, and then rubbing them with your hands. The moisture and gas from the fart should remove any spots immediately.

Queefing works better.

 

[Zapasman]

Anyone have knowledge about buffalo calf leather (called "baby buffalo" by Lucchese)?

I hope someone unswers you first.

Anyone have knowledge about Nile perch leather. Is it comfortable to wear and durable?. I really like this exotic shoes.

.

 

[DWFII]

Buffalo calf is water buffalo. It is widely available and I have been using it for years and years. AFAIK, most of it comes from India where the British had a significant part to play in the tanning industry.

Finishes and so forth may vary with the tannery...some of it is relatively smooth, albeit with more and coarser hair follicles than cow calf; and some of it is slightly grained--a little like hatch grain except not so regular. So, neither iiteration is really appropriate for dress shoes but very suited for casual.

I don't know what Luchesse uses.

I've seen perch when they first started marketing it 20-30 years ago. (About the same time Galapava (turkey) was all the rage.) It seemed thin and fragile to me...things may have changed as far as tanning, etc., over the intervening years. But you'd have to "show me...I'm from Missouri."

 

[traverscao]

Travers, I kind of get what you're saying about the "moisture" here. Many experiments done over the years that are actually documented discuss how too much oil and not enough moisture (meaning water) is bad for leather and actually degrades it faster. (Stambolov, T., H.A.B. van Soest and P.B. Hallebeek. "Conservation of Leather." Studies in Conservation 29 (1984): 21-31.)

Generally when tanneries talk about conditioning leather they are talking about water content, not oils and fats. Those are a part of it, but leather from a tannery leaves with a roughly 14% - 20% moisture (water) content. They have moisture meters, which are stupidly expensive to measure this. Naturally, I am considering getting one.
Interesting... I have tried pushing on them hard to break the surface of the wax with slight results, but I will try your method.

The water content only works well with vegetable tanned leathers. With chrome leathers you can be in risk of oils depositing on the surface, since chromed leathers do not behave very nicely to lubricating content and moisture. Of course, as you would put it, shell will need that kind of water content due to its tannage. This is why I always dampen, or even wet the leather before oiling, either with raw or emulsified oils. (Excellent studies you found there! I won't have to rely on my grease supplier anymore LOL!)

Oils were only there to be a lubricant for the fibers, but if oils saturates the fibers instead, doggone the purpose of it already (LOL!). Tallows, unlike oil, is greasy, and hardens when cool, and serve as an excellent dual purpose lubricant/sealant, because as the leather fibers flex, the tallow melts.

A moisture meter isn't that necessary. You'll know it when the leather feels heavily damp before oiling, and then totally dry on the surface after oiling, but the grain should feel plump enough when the fingers cross over.

In regards to breathing air on shell, it's not that different from brushing the surface with a heavy mist of water, or wipe down with a dampened cloth. The idea is to use moisture to wick away moisture.

 

[traverscao]

Fish leather. Treat 'em with fish oil and they'll work out OK.

I've seen some salmon skin shoes sample from Native Americans in the Pacific North West region.

Allegedly, Sun Tzu, the author of "The Art of War", was reported wearing fish skin shoes as well. Only God knows if it's real - his time was some 40 - 50 BCE (Warring State era), if the story is real, then fish skin has oughtta be one of the earliest exotic skins.

 

[traverscao]

I understand that tanned Cordovan leather have been used since the time of Visigohts and and Moors in Spain as one of the best leathers for shoes and other leather goods (maybe dressy Cordovan shoes for them ?). I understand that during the period of WWI and WWII many boots were made with this leather in Europe due to its durability.

Recently, the improvements of the techniques in the tanning process favors the use of this materials for dressy shoes (a loafer is a dressy shoe to me). Different colours, thickness, shinnig, hardness, texture, moulds to your feet among other features (I wont talk about how to care them, but for me no much work) makes me love shell.

If it is a very good material, there is shortage and the tanning process is quite laborious to reach a great appearance , then it should be expensive.

That is way I like shell and paid for the quality of the leather, although prices are too high currently. I think most people here appreciate the quality of the leather and that is what they pay for.

Ahhh, I do not have JL, EG or GG.

Just my two cents.

The United States Marine Corps used to have their Cordovan Service Shoes made of the actual material for a while, when budget was still, as Pat would put it, in the "...**** you money..." zone (LOL!)

 

[traverscao]

So moisture gets easily in but does not get out?. How is possible that Travers?. I really do not see that with my shoes (more or less like calf leather, IME).

I would suggest you try and look more into the way how they treat the leather after tannage was done - read stuffing, currying, left in a pile, then jack glazing.