Laptop for college: ibook?

[ClassMan]

Ha. Are you totally confused now? Could you imagine if we were your conscience and were in your mind for EVERY decision you had to make. 8 guys here and about 12 different opinions... KEWL...

Â

Â

keep up the good work guys.

 

[pengin]

Thats awesome. Thats why I love this forum, soo many different opionons and view points. Keep up the good work.

Derek

 

[gqelements]

Buy something with Windows XP. Chances are that most of the computers you'll be expected to work with in the future are Windows machines.

No, chances are it will be LINUX.




I have the same iBook as you are describing with a 512-ram upgrade. MS Office:mac is easy to use and compatible w/ everything. Mine runs photoshop+Illustrator+Strata3D [3d rendering program] +word simultaneously, thus you should be ok.

Macs will give you greater security than ANY windows OS. [One security hole in how may years now?]

The design was an important feature that caught my eye for the first time: now I'm coming back for reliability.

Depending what you are going to school for and the lecture style of the prof, a laptop may prove indispensable. [PowerPoint lecturers are a breeze with a laptop [open the "˜outline view' and just add what he hasn't posted on the slide...]

As for outgrowing the iBook, don't worry it will be a while before they fit a G5 in a laptop, and the 1Gh iBook was only released less than a month ago.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

I will be getting alot of angry replies from Apple users about this post. It's impossible that Mac people will just respect this as an opinion and let it slide, mark my words. They will question me and insult my intelligence as usual. So it is written, so shall it be done.

Mac fanatics are frightening. I think that every new Apple computer comes with a free brainwashing kit. I forsee a day in the near future when slickly dressed men go door to door trying to convert PC users to Mac. I shudder to think what the Jehova's Witnesses in my neighborhood will do if they ever encounter a roving band of Macintosh users. It will be like Westside Story, but with more violence and worse singing.

My personal favorite slogan Mac slings about as if its gospel; "It Just works." Well duh. One would hope something that costs $2000 "just works". I can build a PC out of the spare parts in my bedroom in fifteen minutes and it will "just work" too. Good sales pitch. But what is the real appeal here?

You may be asking why I've typed all this, but I feel the need to reply to all the Macintosh propaganda I've been seeing, in this forum and others. I use both frequently, and regardless of the Hype I'll stick with the PC that I built myself. A Windows XP running PC too damn it.

I use a Mac G4 with OSX alot at school, and they are fine for your average joe user who surfs the web and writes emails. They are also fantastic for graphic design and video editing. They *are* relatively user friendly (to a point), and intuitive (sometimes). Now before I start sounding too much like an Apple fanatic, I must point out - that I do not like them very much. Mac operating systems make me crazy, and they always have. Thats just the way it is.

I will tell you with a clear concience that my home PC has crashed exactly 0 times in the past year. "Blue screen of death" as people are so fond of calling it, has NEVER happened on this machine. And as for Apples never fouling up? The fact of the matter is, yes Apples DO crash, and their "it just works" slogan is just a fancy tagline to help their image. I have had major compatibility issues with OS9, and the formatting of certain media that doesnt translate from Mac to PC well on all the Mac's I've used. I have seen BRAND NEW Macs with OSX that will refuse to recognize some of my peripherals until I load the drivers (same as a PC) They are not the infallible godlike creations that some people will lead you to believe. It all depends on what kind of software you are using, what you are using it for, and how your computers are configured. (any serious computer users will probably end up tweaking both Windows AND macOS to suit their needs, as neither one is perfect for everyone)

Macs have perhaps half of the programs that are available to PC users, and yes - a few of those are amazing. (Final Cut Pro is a good example) But the fact of the matter still remains, PC's have a much better selection of available software. Also - as a general rule, it's never good to tie yourself down with hardware that is either unable to be upgraded, or prohibitively expensive to do so (that goes with PC's as well). Apples are built with very nice hardware, but the upgradability is almost laughable when compared to a PC. Personally, I'd rather drive the three minutes to a store, (which sells almost no mac parts.) buy a new processor, plug it into my PC, run the driver disk and be done with it. There are almost infinite combinations of hardware available for the PC, and they are readily accessable.

Plus, Macs come with annoying mice. You can get better mice, but why should you have to? Single button; how do I hate thee... let me count the ways. I don't ever recall asking anyone to design a GUI navigation system that features a bunch of keyboard hotkeys to be used in conjunction with my mouse, It kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the mouse. I might as well just use the arrow keys and the damn enter button.

What drives me nuts is that your selection of Games is limited, unless you want to get a windows emulator (which you can do) - but then whats the point of getting the Mac in the first place?

The conclusion to this rambling mess;
As far as general use goes - email, web surfing, word processing, business software, you won't notice much difference between PC and Mac. The second you want to do any multimedia editing, you'll wish you had a Mac. The instant you feel nostalgic and want to play Ultimate DOOM with your buddies, you'll wish you had a PC. They are TOOLS people, not religious icons, and they are very different tools at that. Their areas of expertise overlap somewhat, and they both have their positives and negatives. In the most general of terms, PC's are what 90% of the world uses because they are more versatile. They just are. Get over it Apple fans. Until more software companies start writing software and games FOR apple (many games are actually designed on Mac's, but written FOR PC - explain that one to me...), until parts are made non-proprietary and are made by thousands of third party manufacturers, until they start selling me more than style and taglines... I will continue to build my own PC's.

And be slave to giant robots.

 

[aybojs]

As someone who enjoys messing with computer hardware and building PC's, I have to agree with Tokyo Slim. I'm not going to get involved in any PC v. Mac flamewars, but in terms of versatility, user-friendliness, and upgradability, PC's win hands down. A funny anecdote is that my school, for whatever ungodly reason, replaced several of the public access PC's in our student center with Mac's. The PC's are always crowded and hard to get on, but you almost never see anyone sitting in front of the Macs; people would rather wait in line for a PC than work on one. The only time you should seriously consider buying a Mac is if you are familiar with them and strongly prefer using them. Don't blow $1000+ on something you have no experience with, especially if it's just because you like its appearance. Function is infinitely more important than form.

As for the laptop v. desktop debate, that's your call. Some factors to consider are how far you are from school and what you will be using it for. If you live a long way from school, transporting a desktop safely to and from home (e.g. moving and stuff) will be a major issue, and you would almost certainly want to have an LCD monitor over a CRT one; in contrast, you can always fly wherever with a laptop as a carryon. Of course, if you want to play games, run a lot of programs, store/play a lot of music and movies on your computer, desktops have far more to offer than the limited capabilities of a laptop (and for less money). This is more a personal decision based on convenience and usage issues, either works.

If you do get a laptop, just don't be "that guy" who carries it around to every lecture and sits there hammering away loudly at the keyboard trying to keep up with the professor, because, damn it can be distracting and annoying to others.

 

[gqelements]

Mac fanatics are frightening. I think that every new Apple computer comes with a free brainwashing kit. I forsee a day in the near future when slickly dressed men go door to door trying to convert PC users to Mac. I shudder to think what the Jehova's Witnesses in my neighborhood will do if they ever encounter a roving band of Macintosh users. It will be like Westside Story, but with more violence and worse singing.

Plus, Macs come with annoying mice. You can get better mice, but why should you have to? Single button; how do I hate thee... let me count the ways. I don't ever recall asking anyone to design a GUI navigation system that features a bunch of keyboard hotkeys to be used in conjunction with my mouse, It kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the mouse. I might as well just use the arrow keys and the damn enter button.

What drives me nuts is that your selection of Games is limited, unless you want to get a windows emulator (which you can do) - but then whats the point of getting the Mac in the first place?

The conclusion to this rambling mess;
As far as general use goes - email, web surfing, word processing, business software, you won't notice much difference between PC and Mac. The second you want to do any multimedia editing, you'll wish you had a Mac. The instant you feel nostalgic and want to play Ultimate DOOM with your buddies, you'll wish you had a PC. They are TOOLS people, not religious icons, and they are very different tools at that. Their areas of expertise overlap somewhat, and they both have their positives and negatives. In the most general of terms, PC's are what 90% of the world uses because they are more versatile. They just are. Get over it Apple fans. Until more software companies start writing software and games FOR apple (many games are actually designed on Mac's, but written FOR PC - explain that one to me...), until parts are made non-proprietary and are made by thousands of third party manufacturers, until they start selling me more than style and taglines... I will continue to build my own PC's.

Contrary to you "˜prediction' I will no insult your intelligence, although the "˜cute' piece about "˜Mac Cultists' is quite ..... no insults.

The mouse indeed may be a pain, but do you really keep the mouse that comes with your pc? Personally I can't live [peacefully] without a 5 button mouse, and yes you CAN build your own Mac and then add whatever you would like as a mouse.

As far as the style argument goes - would you buy a quality "Taget" pair of jeans or ones that are quality and style icons made by...Jill Sander [or any designer for that matter]?  Personally I like the fact that my 2 Macs can be displayed as a part of home dÃ

cor, while the other Dell is tucked in under the desk [out of sight].

Yes, collection of games is indeed limited, no defense. The reason behind that is that apple's architecture supports processing of large [usually graphics as you mentioned] files and not a collection of infinite small one like PC does. Also Apple's target market has been creative industry professionals - style and productivity conscientious, 13 yr olds playing doom. Give Apple some time and Microsoft/HP a couple more antitrust suits and apple will be on the home front.

PC's are NOT more versatile, in fact they [very successfully] copied Macintosh. The original PCs [Xerox, early Microsoft, etc] came with DOS and programming tools, while Macintosh came with "˜windows-style' [albeit previously tried but failed by Xerox] platform loaded with tools to write, create and draw. Windows copied the scheme with, well, Windows and due to a couple bad executive decisions made by Mac in the early 90's, windows soared ahead of Apple in popularity.

As fro the 90% mark you mention - Dell has virtually lost the Chinese [fastest growing] computer market and although China is not screaming Apple, they are giving the finger to Microsoft and setting all their servers to run Linux [a much more secure sever than all the previous windows editions]. This program is backed by the Government and is predicted to spread through out the "˜free' world, delivering a substantial blow to Windows. CRM [customer relationship management] software is also becoming increasingly open source based, showing the same trend much closer to home - metropolitan centers around us.

The Airport Extreme wireless card uses the standard WiFi protocol and I have never had a problem.

To sum up, use whatever you want, if you are a gamer get a PC, if you like design and concepts of a Mac, get an iBook. One thing I can tell you for sure you WILL get lots of attention and compliments on a shiny white carbon fiber laptop in the sea of dull, common PC's.

PS: and just for kicks: clothes are clothes as well, not class badges..... lol [here is my point]

 

[Tokyo Slim]

As fro the 90% mark you mention - Dell has virtually lost the Chinese [fastest growing] computer market and although China is not screaming Apple, they are giving the finger to Microsoft and setting all their servers to run Linux [a much more secure sever than all the previous windows editions]. This program is backed by the Government and is predicted to spread through out the "˜free' world, delivering a substantial blow to Windows. CRM [customer relationship management] software is also becoming increasingly open source based, showing the same trend much closer to home - metropolitan centers around us.

I'll believe that when the Chinese invade the US, confiscate my computer, and force me to use Linux. They are communists, the populace is FORCED to do what the government tells them to do regardless of their personal preference. You know... under pain of imprisonment, torture, and death? They also exploit children for labor, and refuse to stop forcibly occupying Tibet, but you don't see many countries lauding them for that. They probably just dont want to pay for Windows or MacOS. Nukes are expensive ya know...

And even if the rest of the world switches to Linux, don't expect it to become any more common than it is now in the US. The metric system makes a lot of sense, and we still don't use that either.

And PC's are ugly? Depends on who you talk to. Many people don't care what their computer looks like (or what kind of clothes they wear either), but seeing as how this is a *style forum* we will disregard those people.

First of all, yes many PC's are ugly, but they do not HAVE to be. Your first problem is that you bought a Dell desktop. You bought an ugly computer for a reason. Probably because it was cheaper. Not everyone needs to drive to work every day in an Aston Martin. The beautiful thing about PC's is all the choices. So why don't you build (or buy) yourself something nicer looking? If you build it, you can make your PC a part of your decor as well. For instance I am typing to you all via a brushed stainless steel cube in the kitchen area of my home. Its very nice looking, and not plasticky or cheap looking like plenty of the Mac's I see around.

Apple also makes some UGLY computers. Anyone want to laud the aesthetic qualities of the IMac? No? I rest my case. So no points are really awarded there. Though I DO respect your opinion. And yes, some Macs are qute nice looking. But then again, so are some PC's

I keep hearing people say Mac's are more versatile, which seems to be nothing more than propaganda. Where are the facts? Windows may have ORIGINALLY copied MacOS, but that has nothing to do with the current situation. (I still think Mac users are pissed at IBM & Windows for seeing the bigger picture in the computer market) You have to realize that niether MacOS nor Windows are the same programs that they were back then, where Mac has tried to stay in their creative niche market, Microsoft has attempted global domination through all-inclusive programming. and If we've already acknowledged that there is three times as much software, and ten times as many hardware options for PC, where are your facts? More software and more hardware sounds pretty versatile to me. All automobile manufacturers copied Ford too, but that doesn't mean that Ford is the better product.

You can't just go out and build a Mac, nobody in retail carries all the parts. You can't jaunt down to Comp USA, or Fry's, or whatever, and buy all the parts to assemble a new Mac G5. And you can't decide which third party parts you want to use, because there aren't any. You can TRY asking at the MacStore, if you have one near you - but they are too interested in making their slick sales pitch and hurling slogans at you to listen to anything you have to say. And if you ever infer that PC's are possibly superior in some aspects to a Mac, they get offended and try to instigate fisticuffs.

So basically,
If there are all these infinitely better products out there, and More versatile equipment, and some supposed Linux revolution (that is supposed to happen every few years and never gets anywhere) Why are most people STILL using their PC? Is everyone completely stupid or what? Nope. Its just that the Mac does one group of things very well, and thats about all its good for, while PC's do ALMOST everything well enough to satisfy most people, if not spectacularly. Thats My two cents (again). And I am sticking to that. I'm not trying to flame or offend anyone, but I think this is the kind of thing that computer users trying to decide Mac v.s. PC need to know. And its interesting to read the responses I get.

 

[aybojs]

I think it's pretty silly to claim that appearance should be up there with the other main considerations (say, compatibility and customization options) when buying a computer. Yes, this is the Style Forum, but even with clothing you see people here choose function over flash (such as how many people here would rather have a Canali suit over a Prada suit) and considering that computers have far more functional purposes than clothing, asthetics becomes almost a non issue. He's buying a computer to handle work, communication, and some recreational activities, not so he can have a shiny box to show off. If you want to spend $1000 to get attention, there are a lot more efficient and effective ways to do so. Besides, it's already been established that if you build your own PC, the customization options provide a lot more leeway in terms of deciding your computer's asthetics.

You're also being dismissive when you imply that PC's are for 13 year old kids who want to play Doom. Let's be honest and say that PC's are for pretty much everyone who doesn't have a graphics-editing job (I'm just conceding this point, I've never really read anything substantial about Mac's being superior for this purpose); including power users, hardware experts, and professional users. The PC v. Mac question is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority of consumers; the only people who get Macs tend to be those with heavy, pre-existing loyalty to Apple.

I don't know why you mention Linux here; but this isn't Slashdot and the world won't be saved by some utopian Linux revolution. It's a nice operating system that has its strong points, but its user-unfriendliness, lack of established software support, and lack of standardization limit it to a niche role, where it won't have an impact in mainstream computing. The U.S. has become path-dependent on Windows, and consumers won't ditch an operating system they've grown comfortable with over the last decade just so they can spend a few weeks trying to get X configured.

Again, not a flame, but if you're seriously saying that whether a computer looks pretty is a major factor in purchasing decisions and that the primary audience for PC's is preteen gamers, then you should expect to be called out for it.

To the OP: honestly, if you want good advice, find a computer hardware website and read there (anandtech.com and arstechnica.com are two good ones) if you want a good range of advice from people knowledgable in the subject. Asking computer advice here is basically the equivalent of asking a tech forum how to dress for a black tie function.

 

[gqelements]

Asking computer advice here is basically the equivalent of asking a tech forum how to dress for a black tie function.

As usual aybojs struk gold with a simple observation.

As for the mac discussion: it works, it's great and have not had a slightest problem w/ mine. One thing I do encourage you is not to make false comparisons such as canali Vs prada : PC Vs mac; my canali does not have "˜security' threads hanging from every stitch; an area in which the count is infinity to one : apple

Any further than that: I'm not interested in being APPLE messiah.

Now I'm done, hopefully someone has found humor in this little feud, because mac vs pc is always a fun, heated tread anywhere.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Code Sample Asking computer advice here is basically the equivalent of asking a tech forum how to dress for a black tie function.[/quote] Actually, I belong to a few tech forums...AND I know how to dress for a black tie function. I uh... wear... uh.... my least wrinkled Quake II shirt, khaki Dockers relaxed fit slacks, birkenstock sandals with black socks, a teal fanny pack that contains my shiny new I-Pod, and my dad's old black work tie that my mother had to tie for me. Right? Anyhow, I'm always in for an intelligent discussion of PC v.s. Mac. Â I hope we helped the whole laptop buying decision, even though I took us slightly off track. You probably got way more info than you bargained for, and we all (I think) hope that we haven't scarred you for life. Let us know how you like whatever it is you end up deciding on.

 

[pengin]

Wow, the level of actual discussion for this was amazing. It helped a lot in making my decision. In the end, I've decided to go with the 12" iBook. Specs: 256 mb ram (upgrade it myself later) 60 gb HD Bluetooth Airport Card Office 2004 .Mac Will consider about getting the extended warrenty before the initial one year expires. Although I'm aware about the compatibility issues with mac, I'm just drawn to it for its stability and design (as in the connectivity of the software, effectiveness of the computer, and the overall look). I like how everything has a purpose in the Mac, as if someone made all of the little pieces work together to create this big connected picture. It is just more thought out than Windows, in my opionon. This may start some more discussion, but thats what I ended up deciding. I figure that if I do experience any problems within the next few years, I can just sell my iBook. From what I've seen, Mac's keep their price value pretty well. Something I found pretty interesting was The Mac Experiment: Using a Mac at Harvard Business School. You need to scroll around the calendar days / months to read all of the entries.. but it provided a lot of feedback on the Mac. Thanks guys. Derek

 

[pengin]

Oh, for those mac users out there. any thoughts on powerbook vs. ibook?

Difference I can tell:
1. The Screen Mirroring vs. dual output is just a software limitation that can be removed.
2. iBook is supposedly more durable
3. iBook has a supposedly longer battery life
4. I don't plan on getting super-drive
5. Airport reception on the ibook is supposed to be better.
6. Powerbook has a nifty feature where it doesn't close flush.. so that the screen never touches the keyboard (for possible damage as well as transferring hand oils)
7. extended warrenty on powerbook is more expensive.
8. different included software packages.
9. smaller / looks better

The difference in price before you factor in the education discount is around $300.
Powerbook 12": 1,599.00
-60 gb hd, combo drive, 256 mb, airport and bluetooth
iBook 12": 1,323.00
-60 gb hd, combo drive, 256 mb, airport, bluetooth

The powerbook DOES have a better resell value.. and I do plan on buying office 2004 anyways.. So, was there any reasons I missed for spending $300 more?

A few more questions:

1. How much more durable do you think the iBook is compared to the powerbook?

2. Is Keynote worth getting? It's about $100 and I'm going to get powerpoint. Is keynote more powerful.. or what?

Thanks.

Derek

 

[gqelements]

I use PowerPoint and am pretty happy, so I have no need for Keynote. As for superdrive - laptop is not exactly the best platform for ripping DVD's; an average movie takes up ~10gigs in space. As for durability - I have a bad habit of tossing my keys on my desk, which has often resulted in having them land on the ibook -so far no scratches. The ibook also has 4 little gray rubber stoppers that prevent the screen from touching the keypad. In short - don't drop it and you will be ok. [pretty much the industry standard except for the Toghbook which you can throw off a military flatbed with no remorse, but then again it looks like a brick.] The ibook's appearance won me over, but the general rule is getting the best you can afford. In your comparison you failed to mention that the ibook is 1gh and the PowerBook is 1.3; that may be a factor in 2 or so years. I tend to update my gadgets in 2-3 yr intervals so that wasn't an issue. Good call on bluetooth, there are a lot of fun phones, gadgets and peripherals that are both convenient and fun to use [and show off]. If you have any questions here are some good forums to visit: www.spymac.com and www.macaddict.com/forums There are others but frequenting too many just makes the experience a chore.

 

[pengin]

Thanks for everyone's comments.

I just ordered my iBook:

Part Number: Z0A7
Product Name: iBook 1GHz Combo (12" TFT)
Options:
065-4999 256MB DDR266 SDRAM built-in
065-5004 60GB Ultra ATA drive
065-5006 Combo drive (DVD/CD-R)
065-5009 AirPort Extreme Card
065-5011 Bluetooth Module
065-5012 Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English

Along with:
.Mac
Timbuk2 Commute Bag
Apple Video Adapter

It came to about $1,420 usd. (Since I live in Canada / ordered from Applie Canada, I couldn't get Office 2004 with it). It's wierd how the US Apple Store has Office 2004... but the Canada one doesn't. I figure I'll just pick up office as soon as the Canadian apple store has it, or just buy it at a store in Vancouver.

I'm going to upgrade the Ram myself later. I want an additional 1gb of ram (to max it out), but may settle for just a 512 chip.

Hopefully my screen doesn't have any dead spots. I think i'm going to enjoy my iBook. Going to setup my wireless network at the end of June, so I'll probably be going to go to local coffee shops to enjoy the airport card for now. Thanks so much guys.

Derek

 

[gqelements]

Limewire [like Kazaa, but has more Mac users]

or so i'm told..