First Savile Row bespoke

[RSS]

Similar to my experience with Huntsman in London. I eventually went with Huntsman because they opened a NYC office that traveled to Houston and the NYC team is much friendlier.

When Brian Lishak and Richard left to found Richard Anderson ... Huntsman changed. Brian had worked the front room and is incredibly friendly. He has quality people skills.

Although as long as Terry Haste (Trevor Swift in Richard's book) was there, I found using Huntsman a pleasure.

My advice is a "tad" outdated. I retired a few years back and my life got a bit more casual. I have beyond enough tailored clothing to last me going forward. These days my old tailoring budget goes into art.

 

[Vizard]

I would add that COVID has made turning up unannounced an even worse idea than it was already. Many businesses have fewer staff now and are less able to accommodate drop-ins.

Whilst furlough was in operation, my cutter at one place was working 2.5 days per week, and my consultant at another was off entirely. It was essential to call ahead to make sure that they would be present.

 

[maxalex]

Here in Italy one typically has an espresso, preferably “corrected” with a little grappa, with the tailor before browsing swatch books and getting down to details. In any business it’s considered rude, south of the Alps, to dive into negotiations before proper small talk. (Maybe not in Milan which is considered by most Italians to be part of Switzerland if not actually Germany.)

Acceptable pre-tailoring talking points include the relative merits of Porsche manual transmission versus doppelkupplungs paddle shifters, the ideal crown size of vintage Rolex Air-Kings, the cheating Spaniard football players, the foul weather of London and Paris, the foul food of London and Paris, and finally gossip about other, obviously inferior, Italian tailors who are referred to as un-tailors.

Only then can the bespoke process begin.

 

[Despos]

Here in Italy one typically has an espresso, preferably “corrected” with a little grappa, with the tailor before browsing swatch books and getting down to details.

Only then can the bespoke process begin.

Grappa or sambuca

 

[maxalex]

Grappa or sambuca

I almost said that, thank you!

 

[RSS]

Ah, of course... I would've imagined some of those tailors are the owners of their premises? Or perhaps not...

A few years back I inquired about the ownership of the properties on Savile Row. It was my understanding that it's owned by "The Pollen Estate". At the time I asked, Norway's Sovereign Pension Fund – Foreign was the majority holder.

At one point I was under the impression that it belonged to Hugh Grosvenor, but that is incorrect.

 

[Vizard]

Yes, I thought the Pollen Estate owned most of the Row. There is a video on Youtube about "Who owns London" or similar. That is not to say it is accurate obviously.

 

[comrade]

"When Brian Lishak and Richard left to found Richard Anderson ... Huntsman changed. Brian had worked the front room and is incredibly friendly. He has quality people skills."

I met him about 20 years ago on a rainy weekday morning when
I wandered into the shop. There were no clients around and he
engaged me in conversation, recalling that we had met some years
before at a trunk show in Chicago where I purchased some ties
(which I still have) He knew I wasn't a customer but freely discussed
who bought bespoke and the economics of the industry.

 

[Frog in Suit]

Obviously, numbers are not amongst my best skills. The point I wanted to make, above, however, is, that if you are trying to build up a wardrobe, not just collect a few pieces, price does matter. Also, start early, because Savile Row is not getting any cheaper, even considering changes in cost of living, incomes etc. If I had known, I would have bought much more, early on, at those eighties and nineties prices…

START RANT:

I am struck by the fact that the participants in this forum (Is it true of all clothing fora?) only ever mention a very few SR names: Huntsman, Poole, Anderson & Sheppard, Richard Anderson…Who else? Not a lot.

They also seem to consider that work done by outworkers is, per se, inferior to work performed in-house and that larger houses consequently produce better garments than smaller ones.

I shall freely admit that my knowledge of Savile Row, if not derived from direct observation or conversations with people, comes from Richard Walker’s The Savile Row Story, published in 1988 (!). The industry has changed and shrunk a lot since then but the author, if I remember correctly, made the point that a customer’s satisfaction depends on 1) establishing a relationship, 2) finding the best price / house style ratio to fit one’s taste and needs. According to him, cuts had become more homogenized than formerly, and the level of quality / skill was pretty much equal around the Row (in the larger geographical area of, say, Hanover Square to Piccadilly).

I feel, and please correct me if I get the wrong impression, that people are obsessed by brands (a word I dislike – you should have seen the lines of people trying to get into L***s V*****n in rue de la Paix yesterday…): cf. the names in my first paragraph. Why are there no mentions (or very few mentions) of Meyer & Mortimer (my own tailors for almost fourteen years so I may be prejudiced), Dege, Davies, Norton, Denman & Goddard and the other firms resident in St George Street, Kent & Haste, Benson & Clegg, Malcolm Plews (who is apparently thought of as the cutter’s cutter) and others I may forget? Are people looking for “trophy garments”?

Richard Walker also wrote that the same outworkers often work for many big-name houses as well as for smaller ones. I would add that some outworkers most likely prefer working from home and not to be tied to a firm. Your cutter will (should) make sure that any garment with his label in the inner right pocket will be worthy of his firm before you collect it. If he knows you as a repeat customer, that will surely happen. If that were not the case, then change tailors.

With apologies for the rant…

 

[dieworkwear]

Obviously, numbers are not amongst my best skills. The point I wanted to make, above, however, is, that if you are trying to build up a wardrobe, not just collect a few pieces, price does matter. Also, start early, because Savile Row is not getting any cheaper, even considering changes in cost of living, incomes etc. If I had known, I would have bought much more, early on, at those eighties and nineties prices…

START RANT:

I am struck by the fact that the participants in this forum (Is it true of all clothing fora?) only ever mention a very few SR names: Huntsman, Poole, Anderson & Sheppard, Richard Anderson…Who else? Not a lot.

They also seem to consider that work done by outworkers is, per se, inferior to work performed in-house and that larger houses consequently produce better garments than smaller ones.

I shall freely admit that my knowledge of Savile Row, if not derived from direct observation or conversations with people, comes from Richard Walker’s The Savile Row Story, published in 1988 (!). The industry has changed and shrunk a lot since then but the author, if I remember correctly, made the point that a customer’s satisfaction depends on 1) establishing a relationship, 2) finding the best price / house style ratio to fit one’s taste and needs. According to him, cuts had become more homogenized than formerly, and the level of quality / skill was pretty much equal around the Row (in the larger geographical area of, say, Hanover Square to Piccadilly).

I feel, and please correct me if I get the wrong impression, that people are obsessed by brands (a word I dislike – you should have seen the lines of people trying to get into L***s V*****n in rue de la Paix yesterday…): cf. the names in my first paragraph. Why are there no mentions (or very few mentions) of Meyer & Mortimer (my own tailors for almost fourteen years so I may be prejudiced), Dege, Davies, Norton, Denman & Goddard and the other firms resident in St George Street, Kent & Haste, Benson & Clegg, Malcolm Plews (who is apparently thought of as the cutter’s cutter) and others I may forget? Are people looking for “trophy garments”?

Richard Walker also wrote that the same outworkers often work for many big-name houses as well as for smaller ones. I would add that some outworkers most likely prefer working from home and not to be tied to a firm. Your cutter will (should) make sure that any garment with his label in the inner right pocket will be worthy of his firm before you collect it. If he knows you as a repeat customer, that will surely happen. If that were not the case, then change tailors.

With apologies for the rant…

Well, partly, it's because many of the people here are based in the United States, so we rely on traveling tailors. Many of the smaller firms you mentioned don't travel to the US. And among those who do, they do get mentioned here, such as Steven Hitchcock.

I agree that brand recognition has become a thing in bespoke, even for all the talk about craft and quality. I've become disillusioned with a lot of Savile Row tailoring and West End bespoke shoemaking because I think many of the big, supposedly reputable houses aren't producing the kind of work they used to. Have seen things from the larger firms -- Dege, A&S, Huntsman, etc -- that don't think are very good.

I once had lunch with a high-end clothier who hosts trunk shows at his shop. We talked about some of the tailors he's trying to draw in, and I mentioned some of the tailoring houses that I think are doing good work. Almost all of them are small, cutter-run or lastmaker-run operations. They produce a very small number of units per year and the cutter or lastmaker puts their name on the label. He mentioned to me that many of his customers are still after the big, more recognizable names such as Poole, A&S, Huntsman, etc.

I agree with you that outworker systems are not necessarily bad, especially since the labor pool for this stuff is shrinking. I would not necessarily count an offshore system as being a compromise. Ultimately, it's up to the company to deliver a good product, and you can only know if it's a good product if you go into the shop and commission something. Nothing really substitutes for first-hand experiences, not even someone else's experience. This is one of the problems with bespoke -- you don't know if it's good until you try it for yourself. I've used tailors that other people thought were good, and even if I like their clothes on them, I didn't like the garment on me. I've also recommended tailors I like to other people and occasionally see poor work on other people. What can you do -- this is the nature of handmade tailoring, and tailoring for different body types/ personalities.

I will say, I think this board has become two things. First, I think there's less general excitement about classic tailoring and bespoke tailoring. At the same time, there are more people here using bespoke tailors. This all compared to 10 years ago. I also think that, among the people who are using bespoke tailors, you see a lot more variation in names -- stuff from Florence, Naples, Sicily, London, and the US pop up, whereas before, it was mostly focused on maybe two tailors from each of the main cities (London, Naples, etc).

I think the OP should consider cost if only because I think he may be disappointed if he pours all his money into one suit. I'm not one to think that you have to stick to one tailor for the rest of your life. But you need more than one suit and it would be prudent to consider the cost of building a more holistic wardrobe, rather than getting one grail garment. IMO, it's not emphasized here enough that bespoke often ends in disappointing experiences.

 

[Texasmade]

Lke Dieworkwear said, it's because those big names travel to the US and this forum is heavily US based. A lot of the smaller guys just don't travel that much since they don't need to compared to the big name brands with big marketing and OH expenses.

Living in Houston, my choices are Huntsman, Richard Anderson, and Steed. I know Dege comes to Houston occasionally but that was only once a year vs the first 3 coming at least twice or in Huntsman case every quarter. During Covid when travel from UK to US was prohibited, Huntsman sent the NYC team out every quarter.

The only smaller suit maker traveling to Houston is Sartoria Gallo with Eric Jensen.

 

[othertravel]

Lke Dieworkwear said, it's because those big names travel to the US and this forum is heavily US based. A lot of the smaller guys just don't travel that much since they don't need to compared to the big name brands with big marketing and OH expenses.

Living in Houston, my choices are Huntsman, Richard Anderson, and Steed. I know Dege comes to Houston occasionally but that was only once a year vs the first 3 coming at least twice or in Huntsman case every quarter. During Covid when travel from UK to US was prohibited, Huntsman sent the NYC team out every quarter.

The only smaller suit maker traveling to Houston is Sartoria Gallo with Eric Jensen.

Mentioning this again, but Chittleborough and Morgan is producing some interesting pieces. And they possibly travel to the U.S.?

 

[Texasmade]

Mentioning this again, but Chittleborough and Morgan is producing some interesting pieces. And they possibly travel to the U.S.?

They came to the US a couple of times pre Covid when Michael was still there. They never really followed up on repeat trips. I emailed them years ago about their next US trunk show and they never responded back.

 

[corpseposeur]

I'm quite new to bespoke but I like British tailoring styles. All of my bespoke experiences are with smaller firms: Kent & Haste, Meyer & Mortimer, Redmayne's, and Whitcomb and Shaftesbury. I have considered some others but they've all treated me quite well that I think I'll probably stick with them for the foreseeable future. While these firms are a bit more accessible pricewise than the big names, I also haven't had very positive experiences from the interactions I've had with some of the big names.

Terry Haste is finishing my wedding suit--although it wasn't intended to be a wedding suit when I commissioned it before the pandemic. I like how he cuts suits especially. It's very similar to the Huntsman cut; structured with a one button closure. I look stronger and slimmer than I am--which is the point of this cut. I also really enjoy talking with him. I had the good fortune to visit the shop in London earlier this year and squeeze in some extra fittings. He accommodated two fittings in three days, which I thought was fantastic service. For me the best quality of Terry's is that he listens to my views and needs, he doesn't BS me and it makes me very confident in him.

Paul Munday from Meyer & Mortimer is equally fantastic. My wardrobe is about 60% MTM trousers that Paul has made for me. I really like the fabric he recommends. I'll often go to him with an idea or a perspective like, I want a hard wearing casual fabric that can sub for denim, and he'd recommend some excellent fabrics like Thornproofs or cavalry twills. I'd like a bespoke commission in the future and I saw some other customers garments when he visited in December and they're also a very classic British cut. I'm slowly forming an idea for my first bespoke commission from Paul.

Tom Mahon at Redmayne's is finishing a bespoke coat for me after two MTM coats. The MTM jackets were pretty nice and had a soft construction....certainly softer than many other MTM coats I've had. After my fitting with the bespoke jacket, the bespoke is on another level. Tom also speaks his mind and is great to chat with. I'm really looking forward to the bespoke blazer in Moonbeam hopsack. Based on the fittings, it will feel like a cardigan--which again is what I expect from this cut. I can't really explain it but his cuts have a bit more style than Anderson & Sheppard. I think maybe a touch cleaner and sharper but still very drapey. I want to commission a warm weather jacket from him next.

Whitcomb and Shaftsbury are a good option as well. I had originally commissioned a summer suit in a Fox Air charcoal for a wedding in humid and miserable summers in New York. As with many 2020 plans, that wedding was cancelled. The suit turned out well but I think their lapels are cut slightly differently than I expected; a lot straighter with less belly than some of their older cuts. The house cut is a bit soft but still has a good deal of structure. I like their work and I would recommend them but I think I would go to one of the houses I mentioned above first just out of aesthetic preference.

 

[clothingfun]

Hello and I hope everyone is well. Interesting conversation. Many thanks to all for weighing in. I have reached a small position in life where I have a certain amount of expendable income and if a garment is a disaster I can write it off and not lose any sleep over it. Therefore, I would like to provide a little bit of an opinion.

I have somewhat recently been doing business with one tailor on “The Row” via trunk shows to the U.S. for a few garments and have been quite satisfied with the final products I have received. Also, the experience has been outstanding and the memories are a big part of the process for me at this stage of my life. I have another sport coat in process that will hopefully be finished up relatively soon.

However, I also have a very small local(ish) tailor that makes everything in house that has made me a few various jackets, suits, and britches, over the last several years as well. I have posted a few examples around here. I have been extremely satisfied with his work as well at a small fraction of the price. If there is a problem, it’s a heck of a lot easier than contacting London!

I have a somewhat known name out in CA that makes me shirts that I pay a visit to from time to time and they have been wonderful so far too. Great gentleman who are very responsive and do great work. Let’s see what happens in the future as these guys aren’t getting any younger…not that I have any room to talk!

In regards to my cowboy boots (I don’t wear shoes) I buy off the rack. I have found, once again just me speaking, that bespoke footwear isn’t necessary.

I would have to agree with @dieworkwear in that the smaller firms are probably where it’s at going forward. Unforunately, they seem to be a rapidly dying breed as well. At least domestically.

Overall, large or small, anywhere in the world, it’s a craft that seems to be going the way of the dinosaur. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess. Of course I could be wrong as nobody can predict the future.

Just a few thoughts and I’m not trying to start an argument.

Happy New Year!