Covid accelerated dress code de-formalization - true or false?

[radicaldog]

The few times I've been to a jacket-required restaurant, it's clear to me that that I'm not among peers. The people around me are of a higher social class (this is obvious because they are recognizable people. I'm not saying this to "flex" or whatever, just explaining how I can infer people's class from looking at them).

Wow, are you saying you go to the same restaurants as, say, Foo?

If you're in that class, good for you. I'm only saying that such restaurants have little to do with my lifestyle, and I presume other people's lifestyles, so it surprises me when people care about these changing codes.

Seriously though, I don't quite get this point. People tend to emulate their social "betters". If the betters no longer wear jackets when engaging in a typical activity of their class which people aspire to and which is seen as requiring some level of dressing up (e.g. eating at fancy restaurants), then maybe the jacket starts being seen as too stuffy, the meaning of "dressed up" shifts toward the casual, etc. No?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Wow, are you saying you go to the same restaurants as, say, Foo?



Seriously though, I don't quite get this point. People tend to emulate their social "betters". If the betters no longer wear jackets when engaging in a typical activity of their class which people aspire to and which is seen as requiring some level of dressing up (e.g. eating at fancy restaurants), then maybe the jacket starts being seen as too stuffy, the meaning of "dressed up" shifts toward the casual, etc. No?

In today’s climate, one can safely assume that in any large professional gathering those dressed in suits are likely the junior execs and otherwise corporate drones who work for the billionaires dressed in athleisure, complete with the Patagonia puffer vest.

 

[dieworkwear]

Wow, are you saying you go to the same restaurants as, say, Foo?

Seriously though, I don't quite get this point. People tend to emulate their social "betters". If the betters no longer wear jackets when engaging in a typical activity of their class which people aspire to and which is seen as requiring some level of dressing up (e.g. eating at fancy restaurants), then maybe the jacket starts being seen as too stuffy, the meaning of "dressed up" shifts toward the casual, etc. No?

I don't think fashion works like that anymore. I think it used to be that people copied those above them in terms of socio-economic status. So the Duke of Windsor, for example, had a lot of influence. But fashion now seems more complex -- less one-directional and more multi-directional. Trends sometimes trickle up in terms of socio-economic direction. Rich people might pick up a street trend.

Or it's not even ordered in these "lines," but "circles." Trends can spread like waves through a set of Balkanized islands. Some hip hop guy might start wearing double rider jackets because Kanye wore one. Kanye might have worn one because he saw it at a Hedi Slimane show (I actually don't know who did that DR thing first, Kanye or Hedi). Eventually, rich soccer moms pick it up and it becomes uncool, so the "lower classes" abandon it.

Another example: Airforce 1s are considered cooler than Allbirds, despite them occupying inverted class signals. Airforce 1s became popular because they were cosigned by young, often poor, black youths. Allbirds are considered uncool because they're worn by upper-middle-class white people.

Fashion now seems to be less about imitating betters and more about signaling one's affiliation with tribes, their individuality within that tribe, and building cultural capital. And cultural capital doesn't always follow economic capital.

The people I've seen at jacket-only restaurants include men like Graydon Carter and Leon Wieseltier. Aside from maybe StyleForum guys, does anyone take style direction from these people? This class has almost no fashion influence.

Most restaurants are already uber-casual. If the remaining jacket-required restaurants held onto their dress code, would more men dress up for dinner, or would more restaurants follow this code? I doubt it. It seems to me that casualization spread for other reasons (I've argued because of liberalism), and the trend has actually trickled up. These remaining jacket-required restaurants are abandoning the jacket because of forces from below.

 

[VegasRebel]

Most restaurants are already uber-casual. If the remaining jacket-required restaurants held onto their dress code, would more men dress up for dinner, or would more restaurants follow this code? I doubt it. It seems to me that casualization spread for other reasons (I've argued because of liberalism), and the trend has actually trickled up. These remaining jacket-required restaurants are abandoning the jacket because of forces from below.

Vegas is its own unique animal, but that seem to track what has happened here over the last 30 years or so. There are a few places left where jackets are theoretically required (like the Eiffel Tower restaurant at the Paris) but I haven't ever heard of someone being turned away, even if they show up in shorts and a t-shirt. Joel Robuchon is similar, though I think they have a number of spare jackets they "suggest" for people who didn't bring their own. But reviews suggest that others have seen diners in jeans and a t-shirt. Ultimately, it comes down to money. Tourists are here and want to pay for a nice meal, and most restaurants won't turn away money for ambiance or a dress code. And, jokes aside, Phileas Fogg's point is well taken - no one is turning away Elon Musk if he's wearing shorts and flip flops.

There might be a market for a restaurant that insists on jackets, or even black tie, as a matter of ambiance, but few places seem willing to bet on it.

 

[jack webb]

I can recall a new restaurant opening up in my humble burg in the 'burbs. A couple times an impromptu visit was stayed by the thought hmmm, I'm really not dressed appropriately. Then one day I was walking by and saw two guys emerge in that universal, all-purpose summer uniform of the adult American male, suitable for all occasions: t-shirts, shorts, and sneakers. Nowadays it's possible to feel over-dressed wearing just a (collared) shirt and (non-denim) pants.

 

[double00]

the premise that tailored clothes can't survive a mixed crowd seems a really timid outlook ,

if tailoring doesn't engender confidence well what was the point ?

 

[TheChihuahua]

the premise that tailored clothes can't survive a mixed crowd seems a really timid outlook ,

if tailoring doesn't engender confidence well what was the point ?

yeah, the sky is falling in dressing well crowd is overblowing things. At the end of the day, not everyone wants to dress like a sales associate from Best Buy.

 

[radicaldog]

I don't think fashion works like that anymore. I think it used to be that people copied those above them in terms of socio-economic status. So the Duke of Windsor, for example, had a lot of influence. But fashion now seems more complex -- less one-directional and more multi-directional. Trends sometimes trickle up in terms of socio-economic direction. Rich people might pick up a street trend.

I agree with most of this, but for my argument to go through it just needs to be the case that trickle-down is still one of the ways in which fashion works. I think it is.

 

[Boggis]

M&S in the UK have stopped selling suits at over half of their 250 largest stores due to plummeting sales since COVID. Appears to have accelerated a trend in declining sales...

Suit you sir? Not any more at some M&S stores

The retailer no longer sells men's suits at more than half of its large stores as tastes turn casual.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[pomor]

M&S in the UK have stopped selling suits at over half of their 250 largest stores due to plummeting sales since COVID. Appears to have accelerated a trend in declining sales...

Suit you sir? Not any more at some M&S stores

The retailer no longer sells men's suits at more than half of its large stores as tastes turn casual.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is kind of bold of them as M&S is a major retailer"

"The average spend on men's suits has also declined over the past decade, according to Kantar, from a high of £534m in 2011. Some five years ago, spending on men's suits hit £469m but fell to just £159m in the 12 months to July.

Kantar said that although there has also been a fall in sales of women's suits over five years, it is less pronounced than men's professional wear. In the year to July, women bought 500,000 of them compared to 600,000 in 2017."

 

[Mark Seitelman]

The citadel has fallen.

Covid-19 is not the sole cause of casualization, but it has accelerated the fall. People no longer interact with one another in person. It has been supplanted by that dreaded Zoom. You have no reason to wear a suit and tie when broadcasting out of your kitchen, den, or bedroom.

The basis for the suit and tie is the societal notion that a gentleman dressed and behaved in a certain manner in public, at the workplace, at a restaurant, at church, and even the ball park. This norm no longer exists. It was falling before Covid-19, but the pandemic has made the fall complete.

Hence, by and large society has diminished the suit and tie. You cannot expect to see suits and ties on the commuting hoards at Grand Central. Films like The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit and North by Northwest depict a suit and tie culture that no longer exists. In fact, you will not see commuting crowds at Grand Central since many people are staying home "telecommuting."

There are some places where suits (at least jackets) and ties are upheld, such as fancy restaurants, private clubs in town, and country clubs. But these are few and far between. The average Joe does not set foot in such exalted places.

 

[dieworkwear]

I wore a suit yesterday to buy fried pickle chips.

 

[smittycl]

Sitting here in DC with our heat index back up around 100 again with storms on the way with remnants of Hurricane Ida right behind. Walking to Metro then on to work and back has been a great challenge this summer. The only folks who seem okay are those who drive and park in their building garages and spend the day inside.

Covid and climate are making formal tailoring harder and harder to wear.

 

[pomor]

Today I wore this:

 

[pomor]

Wearing in the near future (waiting on the shoes in the mail):