CAVOUR Official Community - Discuss Tailoring, Shirting, Shoes & More - Official Affiliate Thread

[Mirage-]

Bit confused to see chunky shawl cardigans from Drake's. I thought it was common knowledge Drake's themselves simply ordered them from some Scottish maker.

 

[kevinsvindland]

Bit confused to see chunky shawl cardigans from Drake's. I thought it was common knowledge Drake's themselves simply ordered them from some Scottish maker.

Drakes, thats a brand name.
Like Pepsi, thats a brand name...

 

[Mirage-]

Well...I would elaborate more, but I suppose there's little point in me intruding in your business, anyway.

 

[kevinsvindland]

Well...I would elaborate more, but I suppose there's little point in me intruding in your business, anyway.

Please do elaborate, I am genuinely interested.

The entire Drakes collection can pretty much be picked apart in the exact same way as the knitwear.
Lardini makes the tailoring, Astorflex makes the shoes...
I dont think it makes any difference.
Drakes is a brand now, where once it was a small nieche favorite that made nice ties and scarves.
(Does sound alot like an american brand with a rider in the logo..)

I dont wear Drakes alot myself, apart from the occasional tie, but I do love the creative vision it represents.
Michael Hill has built his own little quirky universe, which I appreciate, and apparently many others do too.

To me Drakes is similar to Supreme.
It is a gateway drug, that introduce a young, new audience to classic things.
I would bet alooot of people will find their way into say Alden, Edward Green or Bespoke Tailoring by way of Drakes. So in a way they work hard to keep classic menswear relevant.

What really fascinates me though, is how many threads there are out there about "Drakes is over priced", "X-product is the exact one Drakes sells" etc etc..
Like people take it personal.
(Because who really gives a ****, if it gives you that good feeling, just buy it and appreciate it)

Just my two cents..

 

[Mirage-]

Ok then, since you asked, this is what I'm wondering:

The "problem with Drake's", IMO, is that they didn't make a custom design, or tweak it in any discernible way, they just ordered a ready-made design - and in fact you can find the exact same thing at The Armoury - and charged a premium for it. So there's nothing unique in the Drake's version which sets it apart, at which point, as a customer, if I can I would just buy from the maker (either directly or through stockists). If the brand didn't do any design, that for me means they brought no added value to the piece, meaning I am (likely) paying more for the same exact thing, which obviously I'd rather not do.
That being said, I understand that in the clothing industry this is common practice for several reasons, and not the point I'm trying to make as I'm not really wondering why Drake's does that, I'm wondering why Cavour bought Drake's rather than doing what Drake's does and ordering from the original maker.
There are also other reasons I assume people dislike Drake's for, for example the fact they raised prices by a lot after gathering a following, without any increase in quality. Of course, businesses are businesses, but then if it's only natural for those to seek higher profit, it's also natural for customers to turn away if the value for money is no longer there and they find what they like elsewhere. But that's not really pertinent to my point here either.

The central question I have is, as a brand (i.e. in your shoes), I find it even harder to justify buying wholesale from a brand who in turn bought wholesale, rather than order from the maker in the first place, which I assume would be much cheaper (obviously this is where I cannot see the full picture, being an outsider, maybe you just got a great deal on leftover pieces for all I know).
If you did order them from the maker, then you could either simply state the maker (which actually has recognition on this forum, though I suppose less so in the general public) and pass the savings to the customer, or you could (I suppose, again no idea on business deals) simply private label them just like Drake's and The Armoury do, and further help develop your own name brand Cavour rather than give more reach to Drake's brand.

 

[kevinsvindland]

Ok then, since you asked, this is what I'm wondering:

The "problem with Drake's", IMO, is that they didn't make a custom design, or tweak it in any discernible way, they just ordered a ready-made design - and in fact you can find the exact same thing at The Armoury - so there's nothing unique in the Drake's version which sets it apart. At which point, as a customer, if I can I would just buy from the maker. If the brand didn't do any design, that for me means they brought no added value to the piece, meaning I am (likely) paying more for the same exact thing, which obviously I'd rather not do.
That being said, I understand that in the clothing industry this is common practice for several reasons, and not the point I'm trying to make as I'm not really wondering why Drake's does that, I'm wondering why Cavour bought Drake's rather than doing what Drake's does and ordering from the original maker.
There are also other reasons I assume people dislike Drake's for, for example the fact they raised prices by a lot after gathering a following, without any increase in quality. Of course, businesses are businesses, but then if it's only natural for those to seek higher profit, it's also natural for customers to turn away if the value for money is no longer there and they find what they like elsewhere. But that's not really pertinent to my point here either.

The central question I have is, as a brand (i.e. in your shoes), I find it even harder to justify buying wholesale from a brand who in turn bought wholesale, rather than order from the maker in the first place, which I assume would be much cheaper (obviously this is where I cannot see the full picture, being an outsider, maybe you just got a great deal on leftover pieces for all I know).
If you did order them from the maker, then you could either simply state the maker (which actually has recognition on this forum, though I suppose less so in the general public) and pass the savings to the customer, or you could (I suppose, again no idea on business deals) simply private label them just like Drake's and The Armoury do, and further help develop your own name brand Cavour rather than give more reach to Drake's brand.

I think I understand your points. Trying to explain in short why we buy Drakes.
I would say that it is in their interest to be promoted along with the other brands we stock. And in our interest to let them promote us by having us as a stockist, along with other relevant stores in different markets.

I suppose we could stock William Lockie with Cavour label on them, but I honestly think we would sell more of the Drakes ones. Given the strong Drakes identity.


I will also share a silly fictive conversation that popped into my brain thinking of Drakes:


"Nice Cardigan, where is it from?"

-"Oh, this old thing, it is from Drakes."

"Aah, the guys that made those wicked James Bond Shoes! And have these really cool stores around the world?"

-"Yup, those guys, pretty cool right?"

"Yup. Cool! Wanna go grab a burger?"

-"Did Dolly Parton sleep on her back?"

V.S.

"Nice Cardigan, where is it from?"

-"Well you see, you may not know this, but this is actually made in the same place as Drakes cardigans are made. In fact it is the exact same product, only less expensive."

"Cool, wanna go grab a coke and burger?"

-"Like, at a restaurant? You know you can get the same stuff they put on your plate at the supermarket right"

"I suppose so... Can you cook?"

-"No, not really.."



Who has more fun?

 

[TokenMao]

Ok then, since you asked, this is what I'm wondering:

The "problem with Drake's", IMO, is that they didn't make a custom design, or tweak it in any discernible way, they just ordered a ready-made design - and in fact you can find the exact same thing at The Armoury - and charged a premium for it. So there's nothing unique in the Drake's version which sets it apart, at which point, as a customer, if I can I would just buy from the maker (either directly or through stockists). If the brand didn't do any design, that for me means they brought no added value to the piece, meaning I am (likely) paying more for the same exact thing, which obviously I'd rather not do.
That being said, I understand that in the clothing industry this is common practice for several reasons, and not the point I'm trying to make as I'm not really wondering why Drake's does that, I'm wondering why Cavour bought Drake's rather than doing what Drake's does and ordering from the original maker.
There are also other reasons I assume people dislike Drake's for, for example the fact they raised prices by a lot after gathering a following, without any increase in quality. Of course, businesses are businesses, but then if it's only natural for those to seek higher profit, it's also natural for customers to turn away if the value for money is no longer there and they find what they like elsewhere. But that's not really pertinent to my point here either.

The central question I have is, as a brand (i.e. in your shoes), I find it even harder to justify buying wholesale from a brand who in turn bought wholesale, rather than order from the maker in the first place, which I assume would be much cheaper (obviously this is where I cannot see the full picture, being an outsider, maybe you just got a great deal on leftover pieces for all I know).
If you did order them from the maker, then you could either simply state the maker (which actually has recognition on this forum, though I suppose less so in the general public) and pass the savings to the customer, or you could (I suppose, again no idea on business deals) simply private label them just like Drake's and The Armoury do, and further help develop your own name brand Cavour rather than give more reach to Drake's brand.

I wouldn't say that Drake's doesn't do anything. There's more to value-add than just construction and design, there's marketing, distribution, brand value / following etc. Drake's helps to popularize shawl collar cardigans by marketing it, styling it in lookbooks / product photos, and selling it. If you've looked at a Drake's lookbook, thought "that cardigan looks nice I want one," then Drake's has added value and done its job. Cavour can acquire new customers via people searching for Drake's stockists (or Drake's cardigans more specifically) who may arrive at Cavour's website or store. My guess is that the number of people looking for William Lockie cardigans specifically is far fewer than the number of people googling Drake's cardigans.

As an aside, I think for most of Drake's items they alter the design in some way (like with the astorflex shoes). If the cardigans are the exact same thing as what WL's offering (I haven't bothered to check) then that's in the minority of Drake's products.

 

[NikG]

I really like Drake’s and buy a lot from them. Can be found on sale regularly for 50% off and Archive Sales for 70% off have always been phenomenal, so that to me makes them good value regardless what their mark up is as I can rarely find similar for same price.

I do think their cardigans are exact same as what William Lockie put out and that’s why I just buy the Lockie version as it is cheaper. Otherwise most of their offerings are different than what their original maker offers.

 

[Mirage-]

I wouldn't say that Drake's doesn't do anything. There's more to value-add than just construction and design, there's marketing, distribution, brand value / following etc. Drake's helps to popularize shawl collar cardigans by marketing it, styling it in lookbooks / product photos, and selling it. If you've looked at a Drake's lookbook, thought "that cardigan looks nice I want one," then Drake's has added value and done its job. Cavour can acquire new customers via people searching for Drake's stockists (or Drake's cardigans more specifically) who may arrive at Cavour's website or store. My guess is that the number of people looking for William Lockie cardigans specifically is far fewer than the number of people googling Drake's cardigans.

As an aside, I think for most of Drake's items they alter the design in some way (like with the astorflex shoes). If the cardigans are the exact same thing as what WL's offering (I haven't bothered to check) then that's in the minority of Drake's products.

Well, yes, we were taking about the Lockie (I didn't want to mention the maker's name on a sponsored thread, but Kevin did it himself) cardigan, not the entire catalogue.
And brand value is value, unsurprisingly, for the brand, not the customer. My Cavour jacket doesn't improve in any way if they suddenly became world-renowned. Not unless you care about being able to brag about the branding of your clothes, which is really not different from those that buy clothes plastered with logos for "street credentials". That's just not what I'm interested in, nor respect, frankly.
Lookbooks are slightly less obvious, but I still don't consider them value for me, I just see them as ads to be honest. I also hardly find them useful, they're usually either absurdly contrived, badly styled for my taste, or showcasing cool places rather than surprisingly interesting clothing combinations.
In any case, again, that's not the point I was interested in, as it is something that is already discussed at length elsewhere.

 

[Shetterd]

And brand value is value, unsurprisingly, for the brand, not the customer. My Cavour jacket doesn't improve in any way if they suddenly became world-renowned. Not unless you care about being able to brag about the branding of your clothes, which is really not different from those that buy clothes plastered with logos for "street credentials". That's just not what I'm interested in, nor respect, frankly.

This reminds me of @dieworkwear's recent tweet. No, the quality of your jacket doesn't improve. But something else does change, something which arguably is not less tangible than a lot of the supposed markers of quality (handwork in places where it may add little to durability for instance).

 

[Mirage-]

I think I understand your points. Trying to explain in short why we buy Drakes.
I would say that it is in their interest to be promoted along with the other brands we stock. And in our interest to let them promote us by having us as a stockist, along with other relevant stores in different markets.

I suppose we could stock William Lockie with Cavour label on them, but I honestly think we would sell more of the Drakes ones. Given the strong Drakes identity.


I will also share a silly fictive conversation that popped into my brain thinking of Drakes:


"Nice Cardigan, where is it from?"

-"Oh, this old thing, it is from Drakes."

"Aah, the guys that made those wicked James Bond Shoes! And have these really cool stores around the world?"

-"Yup, those guys, pretty cool right?"

"Yup. Cool! Wanna go grab a burger?"

-"Did Dolly Parton sleep on her back?"

V.S.

"Nice Cardigan, where is it from?"

-"Well you see, you may not know this, but this is actually made in the same place as Drakes cardigans are made. In fact it is the exact same product, only less expensive."

"Cool, wanna go grab a coke and burger?"

-"Like, at a restaurant? You know you can get the same stuff they put on your plate at the supermarket right"

"I suppose so... Can you cook?"

-"No, not really.."



Who has more fun?

I guess the main difference is I would simply buy from Drake's other more unique stuff, if the intention is to gather recognition for Cavour by stocking a big name brand. And get the cardigan from the maker instead.

But maybe you're right and will sell more than you would have if you followed my line of thinking, it's not like I have statistics to prove it's better.

However, I don't see why I would need to tell my friend that long paragraph mentioning Drake's, and how it's relevant that my buddy connects the cardigan to James Bond (which btw is dressed badly in its last incarnation, some say intentionally), instead of just saying "it's from Lockie, they make great knitwear for less than big names".
Again, it feels like we are no longer talking about the merits of the cardigan itself, but the merits of being able to brag about its brand to people, which is not something I'm into. I'd in fact be *happier* if they didn't know Lockie, it would mean I would have given my friend some useful knowledge rather than secured some hypothetical "cool-by-association points" for myself.
But more interestingly, I would have guessed you'd prefer me to say "It's from Cavour" rather than either.
Thanks for answering, anyway.

Oh, and btw I do cook, and in fact, keeping up your parallel with clothes, when I do go out for a meal I almost always order things I can't make myself with reasonable ease.

 

[TokenMao]

Well, yes, we were taking about the Lockie (I didn't want to mention the maker's name on a sponsored thread, but Kevin did it himself) cardigan, not the entire catalogue.
And brand value is value, unsurprisingly, for the brand, not the customer. My Cavour jacket doesn't improve in any way if they suddenly became world-renowned. Not unless you care about being able to brag about the branding of your clothes, which is really not different from those that buy clothes plastered with logos for "street credentials". That's just not what I'm interested in, nor respect, frankly.
Lookbooks are slightly less obvious, but I still don't consider them value for me, I just see them as ads to be honest. I also hardly find them useful, they're usually either absurdly contrived, badly styled for my taste, or showcasing cool places rather than surprisingly interesting clothing combinations.
In any case, again, that's not the point I was interested in, as it is something that is already discussed at length elsewhere.

I'm not sure how we got onto the topic of what your personal preferences are and why that's relevant at all. Weren't you asking why Cavour would stock Drake's cardigans vs. stocking WL directly or doing private label with them? If so, like I mentioned before, Drake's brand has value to Cavour by potentially bringing them new customers or more sales. Good for you if you don't care about brand recognition, look books, or marketing, but those things help bring in customers (which is pretty much what Kevin said as well), hence, why they choose to stock Drake's vs stocking WL directly or doing private label.

 

[Mirage-]

I'm not sure how we got onto the topic of what your personal preferences are and why that's relevant at all. Weren't you asking why Cavour would stock Drake's cardigans vs. stocking WL directly or doing private label with them? If so, like I mentioned before, Drake's brand has value to Cavour by potentially bringing them new customers or more sales. Good for you if you don't care about brand recognition, look books, or marketing, but those things help bring in customers (which is pretty much what Kevin said as well), hence, why they choose to stock Drake's vs stocking WL directly or doing private label.

Well, It seemed as if you were arguing my first point, (whether Drake's brings any added value to the Lockie cardigan), which was really in answer to Kevin's questioning, rather than my actual question (why they choose to stock Drake's vs stocking WL directly or doing private label). But I guess you connected the two now.

 

[dukenukem4ever]

Well, yes, we were taking about the Lockie (I didn't want to mention the maker's name on a sponsored thread, but Kevin did it himself) cardigan, not the entire catalogue.
And brand value is value, unsurprisingly, for the brand, not the customer. My Cavour jacket doesn't improve in any way if they suddenly became world-renowned. Not unless you care about being able to brag about the branding of your clothes, which is really not different from those that buy clothes plastered with logos for "street credentials". That's just not what I'm interested in, nor respect, frankly.
Lookbooks are slightly less obvious, but I still don't consider them value for me, I just see them as ads to be honest. I also hardly find them useful, they're usually either absurdly contrived, badly styled for my taste, or showcasing cool places rather than surprisingly interesting clothing combinations.
In any case, again, that's not the point I was interested in, as it is something that is already discussed at length elsewhere.

Dude what the heck are you talking about???????? Questions about Cavour products? Your posts have always had this sense of superiority and condescension especially towards the Cavour team and @kevinsvindland in particular. If you want to argue business practices with him just call the store and talk or pay a visit to their shop. Jeez Louise. Let’s get back on topic.

 

[Mirage-]

Dude what the heck are you talking about???????? Questions about Cavour products? Your posts have always had this sense of superiority and condescension especially towards the Cavour team and @kevinsvindland in particular. If you want to argue business practices with him just call the store and talk or pay a visit to their shop. Jeez Louise. Let’s get back on topic.

...okay dude.
This is also why I didn't want to go into the subject originally. 100% there were going to be people who would take offence for no reason, even though Kevin asked me specifically to elaborate. Ofc the business practices of Cavour are not my business, I stated as such from the beginning, in case it wasn't obvious.
And to top it all, I wasn't even talking about Cavour in the post you quoted, but answering TokenMao points about Drake's...