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Cashmere Sweater Hierarchy

coloRLOw

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i have a noob question, how to distinguish hand loom or machine made sweaters ?

i check my sweaters, but don't find big differences :facepalm: beg for explanation by pics

The type of loom that he operates became obsolete more than 75 years ago, when most manufacturers abandoned it in favor of automated equipment that can produce in minutes what a knitter such as Hope requires days to make. While Ballantyne utilizes mass-production machinery for many of its knits, it also continues to operate more than two dozen hand looms at its dingy, 85-year-old knitting factory in Innerleithen, Scotland, located a picturesque hour’s drive south of Edinburgh. “Other cashmere companies—such as Malo, Loro Piana, and Brunello Cucinelli—try to duplicate the look of a hand-knit sweater, but they do it with machines because they need the mass quantity to be profitable,” explains Tom Harkness, Ballantyne’s Scotland-based chief operating officer, who oversees the company’s 28 hand knitters laboring in the factory and the 15 working from home.


from what i read, i guess those italy makers maybe also use some hand loom to make a handful sweaters.
i want to know how to tell apart, rather than avoid all italy maker as i now do.


Like most quality knitwear, Loro Piana’s is fully fashioned, meaning that the back, front and sleeves are knitted to size and then knitted together. More unusual is their range of knitting machines, from the large and rapid to the small and delicate.

It is the latter type - hand operated, sometimes referred to as 'flat bed' - that enables more experimental pieces, while the range of machinery makes it easier to produce made-to-measure knitwear relatively inexpensively (usually around a 20% surcharge).


 
Last edited:

Hardtmuth

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This is the Intarsia referred to in the article (100% cotton made in inner Mongolia according to the website):
Maybe if the sweater is really ugly it's hand knitted?

0a8e1894-a835-44ca-bc94-3211e75a86b2.jpg

https://www.ballantyne.it/en-US/product/2485/ballantyne/r_neck/blue_surfer_intarsia_pullover
https://www.ballantyne.it/en-US/product/2485/ballantyne/r_neck/blue_surfer_intarsia_pullover
 

Son Of Saphir

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coloRLOw said:
i have a noob question, how to distinguish hand loom or machine made sweaters ?

Most of the sweaters machine knitted,
the old Scottish intarsia all hand framed,
hand looming style similar to machine knit so hard to tell difference.
Some machines use computer programs which cannot set tension good so it have looser knit
Seems like the old heavy ply sweaters also use hand framed,
the old Ballantyne 6 ply Royce was hand framed.
The intarsia part of vintage scottish knit hand framed whereas the back and sleeves of the knit machine knitted.


coloRLOw said:
from what i read, i guess those italy makers maybe also use some hand loom to make a handful sweaters.
Possible but would doubt it.
Anyone know for sure?
Did the Italians ever hand framed their knitwear for intarsia or heavy ply knits?
 
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Son Of Saphir

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This is the Intarsia referred to in the article (100% cotton made in inner Mongolia according to the website):
Maybe if the sweater is really ugly it's hand knitted?

0a8e1894-a835-44ca-bc94-3211e75a86b2.jpg

That is all mass produced intarsia and looks cheap.
The real intarsia made the old way is highly skilled and beautiful.

Looks nice. I own many Malo knitwear pieces and I would say they are high quality. None of them is pilling. Of course it's also about how hard you wear them.

Malo is very good,
on par with Lockie for numerous things like 2 ply and cable knits.
Some Malo knits do pill moderately where-as others do not.

DorianGreen said:
Berk state they have the same quality of old Ballantynes, somewhat intrigued to try them, but never pulled the trigger yet.

Take company claims with a grain of salt.
Scottish cashmere sweaters are not what they used to be.
Since globalisation more pilling started occuring.
Old Ballantyne was consistent excellent quality.
Most new sweaters are inconsistent quality with some excellent and others poor.

Berk used old Ballantyne workers for a period and claimed to use dry old Ballantyne method,
but the sweaters did pill moderately because difficult to get top cashmere since late 80's.
Now Berk no longer use Ballantyne workers.
It just another Scottish maker making for Berk.
Berk very good at talking things up (marketing)

Me find that not many makers make a good solid knit.
Even Lockie and Malo don't do a great 2 ply knit, not as beefy as the old stuff made in Scotland by the best makers.
Me still like the Barrie for Hermes the best these days.
Barrie also make for John Laing.
They the top maker in Scotland imo.
Quality is reasonably consistent,
and is closest one gets to the old quality of the `good stuff'.
 
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Son Of Saphir

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Ballantyne had about 12 hand frames for knitting sweaters,
but they also had those big ones for knitting larger amounts.

All of my hand framed heavy ply knits were solid and heavy with tight knitting whereas those machine multi ply knits were loser.
Just an observation.
Have one extremely heavy 1940's (12 ply?) turtleneck that is knitted so tightly that hardly any light can be seen through it when help up to the sky,
even more dense than Ballantyne multi ply shawl cardigans.
 

ianskelly

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That is all mass produced intarsia and looks cheap.
The real intarsia made the old way is highly skilled and beautiful.



Malo is very good,
on par with Lockie for numerous things like 2 ply and cable knits.
Some Malo knits do pill moderately where-as others do not.



Take company claims with a grain of salt.
Scottish cashmere sweaters are not what they used to be.
Since globalisation more pilling started occuring.
Old Ballantyne was consistent excellent quality.
Most new sweaters are inconsistent quality with some excellent and others poor.

Berk used old Ballantyne workers for a period and claimed to use dry old Ballantyne method,
but the sweaters did pill moderately because difficult to get top cashmere since late 80's.
Now Berk no longer use Ballantyne workers.
It just another Scottish maker making for Berk.
Berk very good at talking things up (marketing)

Me find that not many makers make a good solid knit.
Even Lockie and Malo don't do a great 2 ply knit, not as beefy as the old stuff made in Scotland by the best makers.
Me still like the Barrie for Hermes the best these days.
Barrie also make for John Laing.
They the top maker in Scotland imo.
Quality is reasonably consistent,
and is closest one gets to the old quality of the `good stuff'.
 

ianskelly

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That is all mass produced intarsia and looks cheap.
The real intarsia made the old way is highly skilled and beautiful.



Malo is very good,
on par with Lockie for numerous things like 2 ply and cable knits.
Some Malo knits do pill moderately where-as others do not.



Take company claims with a grain of salt.
Scottish cashmere sweaters are not what they used to be.
Since globalisation more pilling started occuring.
Old Ballantyne was consistent excellent quality.
Most new sweaters are inconsistent quality with some excellent and others poor.

Berk used old Ballantyne workers for a period and claimed to use dry old Ballantyne method,
but the sweaters did pill moderately because difficult to get top cashmere since late 80's.
Now Berk no longer use Ballantyne workers.
It just another Scottish maker making for Berk.
Berk very good at talking things up (marketing)

Me find that not many makers make a good solid knit.
Even Lockie and Malo don't do a great 2 ply knit, not as beefy as the old stuff made in Scotland by the best makers.
Me still like the Barrie for Hermes the best these days.
Barrie also make for John Laing.
They the top maker in Scotland imo.
Quality is reasonably consistent,
and is closest one gets to the old quality of the `good stuff'.
Hi I have seen a John Laing single ply online and not sure it to buy it or the william lockie , which would you recommend? are all john laing's made by Barrie ? would there be a difference in quality between the Barrie own brand and hermes with the john laing? thanks
 

DorianGreen

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Ballantyne had about 12 hand frames for knitting sweaters,
but they also had those big ones for knitting larger amounts.

All of my hand framed heavy ply knits were solid and heavy with tight knitting whereas those machine multi ply knits were loser.
Just an observation.
Have one extremely heavy 1940's (12 ply?) turtleneck that is knitted so tightly that hardly any light can be seen through it when help up to the sky,
even more dense than Ballantyne multi ply shawl cardigans.
I don't own any vintage pieces, would very much like to see some pictures of that turtleneck.
 

Johnny80

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Hi I have seen a John Laing single ply online and not sure it to buy it or the william lockie , which would you recommend? are all john laing's made by Barrie ? would there be a difference in quality between the Barrie own brand and hermes with the john laing? thanks
John Laing is the luxury brand of Scottish manufacturer Barrie Knitwear.
Owned by the House CHANEL.S.A
So if you can't buy both garments John Laing and William Lockie you should chose the one that fits your body better . If both fits you well, then take the one that cost less
 
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DorianGreen

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So I bought this Malo sweater. It is pretty nice and I am thinking of keeping it. On their care guide they state the following:


Is that right?

View attachment 1829929
At Pringle Of Scotland they claim something similar:

What Are These Bobbles?
Pilling is the completely normal process where small bobbles or ‘pills’ appear on your cashmere garment, usually after wearing, caused by the delicate fibres tangling together. You can usually remove these pills by hand, or more thoroughly with a simple cashmere comb. If you use a comb, gently brush over the pilling – the comb will take off the bobbles easily. Once pilling has been removed and after a few washes, you will notice that your garment is even softer to touch.
 

Son Of Saphir

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ianskelly said:
Hi I have seen a John Laing single ply online and not sure it to buy it or the william lockie , which would you recommend?
None of the best these days is as good as the best of old Scottish stuff IMO.
modern John Laing is probably very good,
but is it worth the extra high price?
Lockie = more affordable and often the quality can be good.
Me only have the old John Laing so not sure about the recent knitwaer from them.

ianskelly said:
are all john laing's made by Barrie ?

probably

ianskelly said:
would there be a difference in quality between the Barrie own brand and hermes with the john laing? thanks

Don't know.
Don't own any Barrie or modern John Laing as yet.
 

Son Of Saphir

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I don't own any vintage pieces, would very much like to see some pictures of that turtleneck.

No sweater is made like this 1940's turtleneck today.
Most densely knitted hand framed jumper.
Very heavy and most solid jumper that puts any jumper to shame.
Made to last generations.
No cashmere for those days,
just solid old hard :)wool.
Even the vintage Dachstein do not compare to this.
20220911_074444.jpg

Look at those meaty sleeves
20220911_074449.jpg


When held up to the sun no light hardly shines through.
20220911_084257.jpg


Even more densely knitted than the Ballantyne 6 ply
Old Ballantyne puts many 6 ply to shame because it is tightly knit and solid,
yet that 1940's turtleneck puts the Ballantyne to shame in every way.
 
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DorianGreen

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No sweater is made like this 1940's turtleneck today.
Most densely knitted hand framed jumper.
Very heavy and most solid jumper that puts any jumper to shame.
Made to last generations.
No cashmere for those days,
just solid old hard :)wool.
Even the vintage Dachstein do not compare to this.
View attachment 1831065
Look at those meaty sleeves
View attachment 1831067

When held up to the sun no light hardly shines through.
View attachment 1831073


Even more densely knitted than the Ballantyne 6 ply
Old Ballantyne puts many 6 ply to shame because it is tightly knit and solid,
yet that 1940's turtleneck puts the Ballantyne to shame in every way.

Thanks, much appreciated! It looks awesome and in excellent condition. Beautiful colour and manufacturing.
 

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