Cars We Drive!

[double00]

If you want to drive a used car for 14 years, good for you, but in no way have you in the least justified your stupid ass statement.

first off a car is used once you drive it off the lot. my 2002 was bought new and i could've sold it at any time but to me it was worth continuing to own (until it wasn't). if i cared to i probably could've come out ahead on the sale (14 years later! how's that for residual?)

my current ride is 2 years old (and yes that means it is used). i fully expect - 2 years down the line - i'll more or less break even on trade in value. or i could keep it if i wanted to since after all i own it.

putting the 'MBA-and-runs-a-business' thing aside imo there are cars worth owning and cars not worth owning. if your point is that it's better to lease a car that isn't worth owning then i agree. if your point is that it's absolutely cheaper to lease well then why does anybody own a car? mathz plz.

 

[Piobaire]



first off a car is used once you drive it off the lot. my 2002 was bought new and i could've sold it at any time but to me it was worth continuing to own (until it wasn't). if i cared to i probably could've come out ahead on the sale (14 years later! how's that for residual?)

my current ride is 2 years old (and yes that means it is used). i fully expect - 2 years down the line - i'll more or less break even on trade in value. or i could keep it if i wanted to since after all i own it. 

putting the 'MBA-and-runs-a-business' thing aside imo there are cars worth owning and cars not worth owning. if your point is that it's better to lease a car that isn't worth owning then i agree. if your point is that it's absolutely cheaper to lease well then why does anybody own a car? mathz plz. 

Cute that you make an assertion, refuse to back up the math, and now make two incorrect assertions you want to attribute to me...and are asking me for math? Seriously, good **** here.

The math for this statement has been done in this thread multiple times: if you want to drive a new car every three or four years leasing is pretty much the best way to accomplish. In A to A comparisons it's a very rare case that leasing isn't the most economical way to accomplish this.

Again, if you don't mind driving a 14 year old car, great. That's just not for me at this time.

 

[HRoi]

Well, that was quick. Lent her my Macan in the morning, she and her husband come pick us up a few hours later. We have lunch, and afterwards she drives us all straight to the Porsche dealership. At 3 pm we're driving out with an order for a base Macan placed.

April delivery. We didn't go anywhere else or test drive any other car

 

[ridethecliche]

No, the XV's here got the base drivetrain. but the list of suspension, cosmetic, and interior mods is mind boggling.
Sti is just doing stupid decorative shite these days, like Nismo. look and handle nice. no real beanz.

best in the lineup would be the turbo forester with all the options.

car industry is sad.

I think the fozzie xt would be rad. It's just too big a car for what I want. If I needed a bigger car that would be at the top of my list especially because of how much you can do to make the suspension and handling more awesomer and also how much headroom there is to make power and keep things reliable in a street car.

The forrester's are called toasters here lol.

 

[mimo]

...affordable RWD sport sedan without all the luxury crap?

I know it's not an SUV, but it does have the same size tyres as an X5. And four seats. And weighs about the same as a Macan.

Perfect solution, surely?

 

[Thrift Vader]

I think the fozzie xt would be rad. It's just too big a car for what I want. If I needed a bigger car that would be at the top of my list especially because of how much you can do to make the suspension and handling more awesomer and also how much headroom there is to make power and keep things reliable in a street car.

The forrester's are called toasters here lol.

Something most Gearheads can agree on, Subies are the "Chuck Norris of cars" . But, they are not for everyone. The SG5 STi Fozzy is pretty much a GDB with leg room. and as Versatile as it gets. can daily, can track day, and can fit 4 friends in it plus shopping/Car Parts. The everycar. perfect. But with any Subie? - Sti, or GTFO.

@HRoi Glad you had a quick result.

@double00 and @Piob. My car turns 18 next year. still Badass. but? would love a daily that doesn't ride like a Go Kart. and could seriously consider renting a Barge.
problem being. while my current Visa status allows me to stay forever, Banks will not loan on that Visa. meaning the 7 parking spots at my house are going to have all cash bought Hero cars. bittersweet. knowing i can collect the hero's. but never enjoy the smell of a new car. with a Barnfind being the closest i could get. i envy that. and applaud piob's choice to go big. and flip the bird at haters. renting is smart. on one hand. because of Depreciation, and warranty. he could pay the same amount forever. and always have a fresh car. on the other hand,when he stops paying, he has nothing to show for it. each to their own circumstances. that is what encourages our general discussion. which is quite enjoyable. and unique. as most forums are one make only.

Perhaps for some of the richer lads on here, opening the doors on an early 90's JDM hero that had a wooden Garage resting on its roof for a generation would be quite the kick.

 

[Piobaire]



on the other hand,when he stops paying, he has nothing to show for it.

Really a good post, and glad you made it, but just want to address this statement as it seems to be the crux of where some (most?) people get hung up on leasing.

So take two exact cars, two different customers, one leases and one buys. The buy guy finances, and this link from Edmunds HERE says that 62% of consumers have a car loan over five years but lets go five years just to make the math more apparent. So let's say the car cost 50k and they're in an area with a 7% sales tax.

Buy guy needs to finance 50k plus 7% or 53.5k. Bankrate puts a 60 month new car loan about 4.4% right now so payments of $995 and the total cost of that loan 59.7k. After 36 months he would have paid $35820. Let's say his residual is 45% so the 50k car is now worth $22.5k. Roughly speaking this guy is now even in his loan to equity at this point. If he decided he wanted out he could probably walk away with a clean slate, +/- a K or two. Rough total cost of 36k to drive for three years and he's have nothing to show for it.

Lease guy's turn. Most models have a captive leasing company today (all the lux brands do, Toyota, Ford Credit, etc.) and they inflate the residuals to make it more attractive. To be conservative let's say they give this car a 50% residual and an MF of .00125 (about 3%.) So right away a lease detractor is going to say the deck just got stacked and I'd agree. I'm not doing it though all the captive lease companies do it. So this guy pays $844 a month (that includes the 7% sales tax) for a total of 30.4k. Let's toss in a grand for lease fees so a total cost to drive of 31.4k or 4.4k less than what the buy guy has paid.

Also, the lease guy knows he doesn't have the hassle of selling a car, or trading it in, plus he has not been exposed to risk in the used car market which is a very real thing.

So both guys end up with nothing after 36 months but one guy paid about 15% more and exposed himself to risk in the used car market. I gave an honest attempt here at realistic numbers and created as even a scenario as I could knowing how things work after doing this for years. In order to keep things even the buy guy would have to trade in at this point and that's where he's really going to start losing his shirt. If he lives out his loan the whole scenario obviously falls apart as it's based on a new car every 36 months for both guys and one really cannot A to A compare a buy and drive for 14 years vs. lease every three.

Also, and I'm not going to run the numbers to prove it so folks will have to trust me, if each guy negotiated 3k off the cost of the vehicle? The lease guy would come out even more ahead due to how leasing works. The residual is figured off the MSRP so that will give a greater advantage to the lease guy when the cap cost gets reduced due to how the cost of carry is figured for both.

 

[HRoi]

Piob, that analysis is spot on, but it's a bit of a cherry-pick. Someone who gets out of their car in three years is always going to win by leasing

I'm genuinely curious about a consumer who, say, wants to drive a car for 9 years. Should he buy a car, finance it for 5, and own it free and clear for 4? Or should he lease three consecutive times?

It's a more complex analysis that I don't have the time to do right now - you'd have to factor in out-of-warranty maintenance costs and 9-year residuals on the buy side, both of which are notoriously difficult to predict. But I wonder who comes out ahead? Maybe someone on the internet has already done this study....

The other thing that totally ***** up any rational lease vs buy analysis are all the intangible arguments. "Pride of ownership" on the buy side and "peace of mind" on the lease side, as an example. Personally, my household is equally a buy and lease consumer, so I have no bias...but I do wonder whether I'm picking the right option fiscally when I go one way or the other

 

[mike1445]

Kia Stinger GT? Return of the affordable RWD sport sedan without all the luxury crap?

tail end reminds me of the RX-7, with a bit more heft

Well, that was quick. Lent her my Macan in the morning, she and her husband come pick us up a few hours later. We have lunch, and afterwards she drives us all straight to the Porsche dealership. At 3 pm we're driving out with an order for a base Macan placed.

April delivery. We didn't go anywhere else or test drive any other car

hahaha, that was quick! I was catching up with the thread this morning and was gonna ask if she had checked out the SQ5.


How are dudes still questioning Pio's rationale? I've driven an MB S, I've sat in the GLS, if comfort, space and driving dynamics are his top priorities, how can you question his choice?

 

[HRoi]

Totally forgot about the SQ5, lol. I guess it's water under the bridge now

 

[Piobaire]

It's not really a cherry pick but rather trying to keep things A to A. Removing the intangibles, which I agree with you are real but a little too hard to quantify here, I think it breaks down to two different strategies for the vast majority of consumers. One strategy is to always drive new and be in warranty and the other is to minimize your cost per mile over the long term without regard to warranty or car age. Leasing clearly wins for the first strategy and buying wins for the second. Which strategy a person picks is an individual choice, but once you pick your strategy, I don't think there's much doubt as to whether buy or lease makes the most sense.

 

[Thrift Vader]

It's not really a cherry pick but rather trying to keep things A to A. Removing the intangibles, which I agree with you are real but a little too hard to quantify here, I think it breaks down to two different strategies for the vast majority of consumers. One strategy is to always drive new and be in warranty and the other is to minimize your cost per mile over the long term without regard to warranty or car age. Leasing clearly wins for the first strategy and buying wins for the second. Which strategy a person picks is an individual choice, but once you pick your strategy, I don't think there's much doubt as to whether buy or lease makes the most sense.

in your expert analysis. we are both winners.

my honest question(s) to you is, will you ever walk away from leasing? when you retire? are you waiting for the car to keep, or planning to have a Classic to tinker with when you can't remember your own shirt size?
what is the ride at the end of the journey?

 

[Piobaire]



in your expert analysis. we are both winners.


my honest question(s) to you is, will you ever walk away from leasing? when you retire?  are you waiting for the car to keep, or planning to have a Classic to tinker with when you can't remember your own shirt size?
what is the ride at the end of the journey?

We'll keep leasing for the foreseeable future but I can definitely see scenarios where we either move to buys or buy one, lease the other type thing. I kick around buying that forever car, like when they came out with the very last iteration of the Dodge Viper, but fight off those urges. I still need to acquire my Harley and that comes over a third car.

 

[brokencycle]

It's not really a cherry pick but rather trying to keep things A to A. Removing the intangibles, which I agree with you are real but a little too hard to quantify here, I think it breaks down to two different strategies for the vast majority of consumers. One strategy is to always drive new and be in warranty and the other is to minimize your cost per mile over the long term without regard to warranty or car age. Leasing clearly wins for the first strategy and buying wins for the second. Which strategy a person picks is an individual choice, but once you pick your strategy, I don't think there's much doubt as to whether buy or lease makes the most sense.

I think there are more than two strategies. One could buy new and sell every 5 years (to stay in the warranty term). One could buy a CPO vehicle and hold it for the length of the CPO term (3-5 years).

I'm not saying either strategy is more effective on any given metric, and they fall into a jack-of-all trade but master of none territory.

 

[yorkshire pud]



in your expert analysis. we are both winners.


my honest question(s) to you is, will you ever walk away from leasing? when you retire?  are you waiting for the car to keep, or planning to have a Classic to tinker with when you can't remember your own shirt size?
what is the ride at the end of the journey?

A classic to tinker with??

I would pay good money to watch that