Can we agree on this as terms???

[Zegnamtl]

T4phage,

If that is what works for you great.

I think iammatt knows well enough that breaking it in to those two groups means everything in RTW is machine made then. Oxxford too, while they hand pad this and that, they use a lot of old Singers, so what the hell, the world is white and black and all RTW on the face of the earth is now machine made!

That however, is far from the real world of RTW suits today,
so for the rest of us who live and shop in the RTW.

if it is white or black, Kiton has never mislead a client as some have claimed, the web shows machine padded, where is the deception coming from, our minds and how we interrupted others words?

This is not about bespo vs RTW, it is about defining RTW.
Fused and unfused is worthless in the new production world.

Originally Posted by T4phage

The one made by Iammatt seems like a nice clean demarcation of what most tailors would agree as the base minimum to qualify as a 'handmade' suit. The next level down, what Iammatt defines as "Machine made" could maybe better be divided between "fused" and "unfused". Most of what you have suggested as "engineered garments" will fall into the 'fused' groupings, along as most other low to mid level brands. The bean counting is in the "unfused" section. How to define which is which? Is Kiton better than La Vera is better than Brioni is better than Belvest is better than etc. At that level they are all about equal in the amount of handwork (as defined by hand holding needle and thread, or hand holding pressing iron to shape, etc..).. how to grade and pidgeonhole them? I do not think it is really worth doing. Since in my eyes, they are all about the same. You choose which one fits better, looks better, and feels better.

 

[edmorel]

Is there a "who gives a ****" option?

 

[Zegnamtl]

Originally Posted by edmorel

Is there a "who gives a ****" option?

With all due respect Ed,

there sure is,
it is silence.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

T4phage,

If that is what works for you great.

I think iammatt knows well enough that breaking it in to those two groups means everything in RTW is machine made then. Oxxford too, while they hand pad this and that, they use a lot of old Singers, so what the hell, the world is white and black and all RTW on the face of the earth is now machine made!

That however, is far from the real world of RTW suits today,
so for the rest of us who live and shop in the RTW.

if it is white or black, Kiton has never mislead a client as some have claimed, the web shows machine padded, where is the deception coming from, our minds and how we interrupted others words?

This is not about bespo vs RTW, it is about defining RTW.
Fused and unfused is worthless in the new production world.
for the 900th time, I would be happy to call Oxxford handmade. Hell, they could be the demarcation line for all I care. I am just irked by the idea of calling a company that uses fake pickstitching machines handmade. I am sure there is a twinge of bitterness in there, but drinking Kool-aid can leave that taste.

 

[edmorel]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

With all due respect Ed,

there sure is,
it is silence.

I try but what is this, the 100th thread on this subject?

And what is going to happen, the mens clothing industry will now use SF approved terms for their construction?

Is this vote a binding or non binding resolution?

 

[Zegnamtl]

Originally Posted by iammatt

for the 900th time, I would be happy to call Oxxford handmade. Hell, they could be the demarcation line for all I care. I am just irked by the idea of calling a company that uses fake pickstitching machines handmade. I am sure there is a twinge of bitterness in there, but drinking Kool-aid can leave that taste.

I agree that Oxxford should be in the hand made group,
the point is what defines A from B from C.

Otherwise, it looks like oxxofrd and everything else in the world is on the other side the fence? Not realistic in my view.

There more shades of gray that tones of black and white.

 

[acidboy]

Hey how come odoreater voted twice? One on each side.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by acidicboy

Hey how come odoreater voted twice? One on each side.
that ain't right!!

 

[Zegnamtl]

Originally Posted by edmorel

I try but what is this, the 100th thread on this subject? And what is going to happen, the mens clothing industry will now use SF approved terms for their construction? Is this vote a binding or non binding resolution?
The vote means dip ****. The end conclusion of a group wide better understand of how the trade REALLY works instead of how we THINK it works or how we WISH it to work may lead to fewer disappointments of rather large consequence in the future and more ledgable exchange of meaningfull notes on our finds, that may mean something.

 

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by Zegnamtl

The vote means dip ****.

The end conclusion of a group wide better understand of how the trade REALLY works instead of how we THINK it works or how we WISH it to work may lead to fewer disappointments of rather large consequence in the future and more ledgable exchange of meaningfull notes on our finds, that may mean something.

I love the fact that the person who originated this thread and set up the poll now thinks it's "dip ****." I also love the fact that now that "the truth" has been revealed about Kiton, everyone might be "dissapointed" in their garments, as if they now don't fit or look like they did only yesterday.

The prissiness which is pervading these various threads is astounding. Of course we all know that once people find out that you're wearing machine sewn instead of handsewn garments, everyone who's anyone is going to look at you differently. You'll be excluded and blackballed from the most important parties, clubs and gatherings. You can just forget about that promotion at work, pal. Get used to middle management. Your children will need to make due with state schools, because the ivy league or even second tier private schools are right out. Your attempts at living your life with quiet dignity will be undercut by an internal sense of shame and desperation. Ultimately, you are destined to die lonely, even though surrounded by your family, with an unending internal voice following you to your grave (where you will be buried in your inferior machine sewn garment), silently screaming, "If only I hadn't bought into the Kiton hype!!"

I realize the obvious response to this post is something along the lines of "no, you don't understand, we don't care what other people think, we're just dressing for ourselves and want the best information possible, etc., etc.", but I can't help but sense the underlying insecurity and attempt to keep up with the perceived Joneses which is sprinkled throught what now constitutes at least 6 threads, by my count.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[lakewolf]

^^^

I also find all this suit ripping excessive...

I am very happy and self satisfied with my ( the horror

) machine canvassed suits and I tell you I look better on them than other guys in $5000 suits I've seen in the WAYWN threads here and at AAAC....

I am happy, look and feel good in them

At the end this is the only thing that matters

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by lakewolf

I tell you I look better on them than other guys in $5000 suits I've seen in the WAYWN threads here and at AAAC....
oh you do?

 

[edmorel]

Originally Posted by JBZ

I love the fact that the person who originated this thread and set up the poll now thinks it's "dip ****." I also love the fact that now that "the truth" has been revealed about Kiton, everyone might be "dissapointed" in their garments, as if they now don't fit or look like they did only yesterday.

The prissiness which is pervading these various threads is astounding. Of course we all know that once people find out that you're wearing machine sewn instead of handsewn garments, everyone who's anyone is going to look at you differently. You'll be excluded and blackballed from the most important parties, clubs and gatherings. You can just forget about that promotion at work, pal. Get used to middle management. Your children will need to make due with state schools, because the ivy league or even second tier private schools are right out. Your attempts at living your life with quiet dignity will be undercut by an internal sense of shame and desperation. Ultimately, you are destined to die lonely, even though surrounded by your family, with an unending internal voice following you to your grave (where you will be buried in your inferior machine sewn garment), silently screaming, "If only I hadn't bought into the Kiton hype!!"

I realize the obvious response to this post is something along the lines of "no, you don't understand, we don't care what other people think, we're just dressing for ourselves and want the best information possible, etc., etc.", but I can't help but sense the underlying insecurity and attempt to keep up with the perceived Joneses which is sprinkled throught what now constitutes at least 6 threads, by my count.

Just my 2 cents...

+1

 

[amerikajinda]

Originally Posted by lakewolf

^^^

I also find all this suit ripping excessive...

I am very happy and self satisfied with my ( the horror

) machine canvassed suits and I tell you I look better on them than other guys in $5000 suits I've seen in the WAYWN threads here and at AAAC....

I am happy, look and feel good in them

At the end this is the only thing that matters

Yes, it's a banal cliche but it bears repeating here: The most important thing is the fit of the garment. A man wearing a $5,000 cashmere Kiton or an $18,000 Campagna with 24-karat gold thread in the pinstripes that doesn't fit him properly won't look as good as the man wearing the perfectly-fitting $2,500 Oxxford.

 

[lakewolf]

This is the, world o Maya, The transitory, manifold appearance, of the sensible world, which obscures the, undifferentiated spiritual reality from which, it originates.

Everything is, unreal, only what you, perceive is what counts.