Calling All Shoe Fit Savants!

[JohnMRobie]

For sure! Unfortunately, many shoes I like (Alden, some AE, Cheaney) are either not available through brick and mortar retail near me or not sold in the US. I'd much rather not buy shoes online an am only using measurements for reference points.
The reason I mention 9.5C instead of a 9D is due to length issues. A 9D may generally have the same ball width as a 9.5C, but a 9.5 length foot would still feel misaligned in the 9. If my 9.5d sneaker sole ball width is around that of a typical 9.5C, then is that not a good starting point?

"width is around that of a typical 9.5C" - Typical for whom? As @breakaway01 mentioned a couple times there isn't really a "typical" and you need to consider which maker and which last.

 

[marlinspike]

Take a picture showing your arch with no weight bearing on the foot before everybody thinks answer is simple.

 

[DrapeCut]

Take a picture showing your arch with no weight bearing on the foot before everybody thinks answer is simple.

Here are both feet and a picture of my left foot in a Bruno Magli 9.5D oxford

 

[marlinspike]

It's hard to say without seeing it against a flat surface, but it looks like you have a flexible flatfoot (so you can make an arch by standing on your tiptoes for instance), which is the more common and lucky form of flatfoot. There are some physical therapy things that can help that, but you should fit this way:
Ball of your foot at the widest part of the insole
Wide enough for all of your foot, though snug when new (expect 2-3mm of stretch, which is like the thickness of changing from a dress sock to an athletic sock)
Enough length to accommodate your toes
Very importantly, a shoe that has arch support within it, good strong more than usual arch support. The reason being a few things, but from the shoe fit perspective alone, until you line your foot up correctly (which you have to do artificially with support), the contact patch of your foot just isn't the right shape for a shoe (it changes a lot about foot shape to pull up the center of the foot).

Once you have those three, heel slippage/room in the toebox etc are issues with individual lasts. If I remember right, most Aldens have a B heel on a D width shoe (you'll see them marked inside D/B...been a few years, maybe they say B/D). But really all other aspects of fit come down to the individual shoe last, and your size of shoe should be based on the metrics above, if you hit those three and something else about fit is wrong, don't try another size, try another shoe.

Not a doctor, just one of the unlucky rigid flat foot people and have spent a lot of time learning about this.

 

[DrapeCut]

Thanks for such a thorough analysis! So, in a "perfect" world in which all shoe maker sizes correlated with brannock sizing, you wouldn't recommend I size down in length and risk overcompensating in ways that compromise width, ball alignment, and toe comfort. Barring last selection, would a 9.5C offer better arch support than a 9.5D?

 

[marlinspike]

Thanks for such a thorough analysis! So, in a "perfect" world in which all shoe maker sizes correlated with brannock sizing, you wouldn't recommend I size down in length and risk overcompensating in ways that compromise width, ball alignment, and toe comfort. Barring last selection, would a 9.5C offer better arch support than a 9.5D?

Arch support comes down to the individual brand. A lot of dress shoes have almost none (this is why for my rigid flatfoot AE 65 last in 3E worked better than anything not bespoke for me, so little arch support that it fits my unarchable foot).
The nice thing for you is any shoe that says it is good for flat feet will be good for you, whereas for me everybody ignores rigid flat foot which needs the opposite.

This is going to sound counterintuitive, but an Alden Modified last in something like a 9.5C might fit you well, particular if you throw in a small arch support. What you noted about your ankles is described as being pronated, and you will note Alden describes the Modified as being for people with high arches but also for people with weakened pronated feet. This seems counterintuitive until you realize with a flexible flat foot you will need to fake an arch using supports. Also, the modified last has extra volume in the front of the shoe but extra narrow heels is why I think it might work for you (but definitely get from somewhere with a good return policy).

If you were near Virginia Beach I know a store that is happy to order pairs for a customer who needs to find out if they fit, as long as that customer will genuinely buy if it does fit.

 

[DrapeCut]

I'm not so sure i want to assume that my amateur self-diagnosis of the problem is actually the issue. Maybe i should visit an orthopedist before deciding what to look for in a shoe. Shoe fit self-assessment isn't nearly as intuitive as fitting pants, shirts, and jackets. It's hard to know what is appropriately snug etc.

Arch support comes down to the individual brand. A lot of dress shoes have almost none (this is why for my rigid flatfoot AE 65 last in 3E worked better than anything not bespoke for me, so little arch support that it fits my unarchable foot).
The nice thing for you is any shoe that says it is good for flat feet will be good for you, whereas for me everybody ignores rigid flat foot which needs the opposite.

This is going to sound counterintuitive, but an Alden Modified last in something like a 9.5C might fit you well, particular if you throw in a small arch support. What you noted about your ankles is described as being pronated, and you will note Alden describes the Modified as being for people with high arches but also for people with weakened pronated feet. This seems counterintuitive until you realize with a flexible flat foot you will need to fake an arch using supports. Also, the modified last has extra volume in the front of the shoe but extra narrow heels is why I think it might work for you (but definitely get from somewhere with a good return policy).

If you were near Virginia Beach I know a store that is happy to order pairs for a customer who needs to find out if they fit, as long as that customer will genuinely buy if it does fit

 

[marlinspike]

While I'm at it, these 3 videos you may find helpful
- this one is about running shoes, but you will see when they draw the footprint how different yours is, gives you and idea of what shape you need to support your foot into, and will help you visualize why nothing seems to fit you right, because your foot is so unlike what shoemakers are expecting.

- just good for your joint health, and it helps you understand how everything unusual you noted about your feet/legs all tie into your flatfoot condition, and you'll find a much better life once you find proper support.

- Examples of supports and pros/cons, though there are all kinds of supports out there now and you'll have to find what you can fit inside a dress shoe, it exists, you'll just have to look.

 

[ronscuba]

Maybe try an inexpensive arch cookie with one of your existing shoes to see if it makes a difference.

https://www.amazon.com/Pedag-Symmetrical-Adhesive-Support-Medium/dp/B001E6QSMI/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=arch%2Bcookie&qid=1613587351&sr=8-2&th=1

 

[DrapeCut]

So, I just tried the wet footprint test and my arches seem to be pretty normal. I'm not so sure I have any kind of flat foot and am now really confused! Am I just nuts or OCD on shoe fit?

 

[marlinspike]

Interesting, no idea how that is your foot print from the pictures we saw, but I guess a picture sometimes tells 1000 lies.
It is still the case though that you fit the shoe to the ball of your foot, both in terms of length and width, and then the rest of the fit is done by changing to a shoe made on a different last, not by playing with size.

 

[DrapeCut]

Interesting, no idea how that is your foot print from the pictures we saw, but I guess a picture sometimes tells 1000 lies.
It is still the case though that you fit the shoe to the ball of your foot, both in terms of length and width, and then the rest of the fit is done by changing to a shoe made on a different last, not by playing with size.

Thanks a lot! Truthfully, I've never paid any attention to the idea of last shape as most retail sales people only discuss fit in terms of length and width sizes (which is all the brannock addresses). Now, I'm inclined to dump my never-worn AE and Cheaney shoes in 8.5D! I don't think that I'll be buying shoes online again though.

 

[marlinspike]

Thanks a lot! Truthfully, I've never paid any attention to the idea of last shape as most retail sales people only discuss fit in terms of length and width sizes (which is all the brannock addresses). Now, I'm inclined to dump my never-worn AE and Cheaney shoes in 8.5D! I don't think that I'll be buying shoes online again though.

You can buy shoes online, just make sure there is a good return policy. On the AE check the last. You might like a 42, though not a lot was made on it, or one of their several lasts they describe as being wide in the forefoot and then size down one width, might leave you with a properly wide enough forefoot and then a narrow enough heell. The thing is, every 9.5 D is different, shoe size is very non-standard from one last to the next unfortunately, it's just a way to compare within the same last.

 

[DrapeCut]

The AE 42 ("sleek in arch and instep") and 79 ("low fit across top of foot") might be perfect in 9.5D! Only question how to try them on...
I realize that the classic 65 last, with its high instep design, would probably never give me a snug fit in the vamp despite the other proportions working....sad!

 

[JohnMRobie]

Thanks a lot! Truthfully, I've never paid any attention to the idea of last shape as most retail sales people only discuss fit in terms of length and width sizes (which is all the brannock addresses). Now, I'm inclined to dump my never-worn AE and Cheaney shoes in 8.5D! I don't think that I'll be buying shoes online again though.

It's more art than science and you can't just look at measurements - Think of it like a jacket - If I have only the numbers for shoulder measurement (I guess we could call this your heel to ball you mentioned), chest (width) and sleeve length (length) how confident am I in the fit how I want it to be? Arm hole height? Button stance? Length from the collar? What if I have a hollow back or my shoulders are rolled forward? Numbers can be helpful for starting to dial in what might work but it won't tell me until I try. Unlike a jacket shoes will somewhat accommodate me and leather will adapt a bit but if I need bigger adjustments I can't just bring it to a tailor. And like a jacket there are some things that a tailor or a cobbler in this case just can't fix if they don't fit me.