Brooks Brothers Bankruptcy Thread

[dauster]

I've heard, but don't know for sure, that some people at Garland are behind Liberty Shirt Co.

About Liberty Shirt Co.

We’re starting over. A brand new company - building on a dream our family has been pursuing for 4 generations.

libertyshirtco.com

I believe Southwick will reopen in some other form. Don't know about the tie factory.

I've said this elsewhere, and I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but if people genuinely care about classic men's clothing and American manufacturing, they have to show this with their dollars. That means purchasing at full price, not just discounted, second hand, or factory seconds. That's the only way these companies can survive.

There are still classic American made clothes -- Rancourt, Micahel Spencer, Gitman Brothers, Hickey Freeman, Hertling, Alden, etc.

That's their fault for offering so many discounts (same goes for AE). If they could offer suits with great quality that come with a certain price tag I'm sure they would still be around - I have not heard of Zegna filing for bankruptcy.
But once you offer discounts pretty much all year or buy 3 shirts for whatever people are not going to pay full price but always expect a discount. I would say I have a quite substantial amount of disposable income but wouldn't dream of paying full price if I don't have to. It's not my fault their executives can't figure it out.
I do hope smaller family owned businesses stick around but helping them out by paying full price is not the way to go - unless it's a one or two men shop like Nick Templeman that seems close to your heart for example. But real businesses need to offer items that people want to spend full price on and no the other way around.

 

[dieworkwear]

That's their fault for offering so many discounts (same goes for AE). If they could offer suits with great quality that come with a certain price tag I'm sure they would still be around - I have not heard of Zegna filing for bankruptcy.
But once you offer discounts pretty much all year or buy 3 shirts for whatever people are not going to pay full price but always expect a discount. I would say I have a quite substantial amount of disposable income but wouldn't dream of paying full price if I don't have to. It's not my fault their executives can't figure it out.
I do hope smaller family owned businesses stick around but helping them out by paying full price is not the way to go - unless it's a one or two men shop like Nick Templeman that seems close to your heart for example. But real businesses need to offer items that people want to spend full price on and no the other way around.

It's not like these companies want to discount. They discount because people don't shop at full price.

People frame this as a chicken and egg problem. I don't think that's the correct analogy, as it suggests we don't know which came first. Instead, there's a positive feedback loop (different from the chicken-and-egg problem). A positive feedback loop means that companies are forced to continually discount as they begin to discount, as they train thier customers to only shop on discount. However, we know which came first: customers don't shop at full price, which means companies have to discount to move products.

It's true that the way to solve this is by offering products people want to pay full price for. But that basically means luxury goods (e.g. Hermes), bespoke (never any discounts), and hyped items (Supreme drops). These are all the things that people here keep complaining about. They want to see value-focused, American-made, classic men's clothing, but they don't purchase these things. Such items are commoditized like white t-shirts and green apples. They are treated as interchangeable with everything else on the market. In such conditions, of course things get discounted, offshored, and closed down as it's about price.

 

[clee1982]

My theory is still always the same, over supply, you can have all the pricing discipline you want, can't deal with over supply you just left with unsold item at MSRP...

 

[dauster]

It's not like these companies want to discount. They discount because people don't shop at full price.

People frame this as a chicken and egg problem. I don't think that's the correct analogy, as it suggests we don't know which came first. Instead, there's a positive feedback loop (different from the chicken-and-egg problem). A positive feedback loop means that companies are forced to continually discount as they begin to discount, as they train thier customers to only shop on discount. However, we know which came first: customers don't shop at full price, which means companies have to discount to move products.

Very good point but let's be real they are too big for what kind of products they offer. I don't see people wearing more suits in the future. Hence their footprint is way too large. They are just a dinosaur and unfortunately offer a very mediocre product. The people that are into suits go to other more niche brands and the average guy mainly goes to Suit Supply or the likes. Regarding the discounting, sure you are probably right but is that the consumer's fault?

 

[clee1982]

haha! I remember not too long ago when that was the regular price for an Oxxford suit. Now it’s almost twice that.

Paul Stuart actually uses Oxxford in their made to measure program.

Really? I think PS stopped their bespoke service and have 2 MtM program I'm aware, one is with Samuelsohn, and one is the new Custom Lab made in China thing (with cheaper start pricing too), which line is Oxxford?

I know some RTW top of the line is made in America (instead of use to be Isaia quite a while ago), I assume those are Oxxford,? but thought those are phasing out too?

I see some cheaper Made in America ones as well, I assume those are HF.

 

[dieworkwear]

Regarding the discounting, sure you are probably right but is that the consumer's fault?

Let's set fault aside. I'm only saying that there are still companies that offer classic, American-made garments and accessories. If people actually care about these things, they have to support those companies by purchasing at full price. Companies can't survive on 50% discounts and factory seconds.

This reminds me of this headline. At a "Bikers for Trump" rally, the organization's founder says that he wants to bring American manufacturing back. Yet, he has his t-shirts made in Haiti. His response? American manufacturing is too expensive, prices are inflated, and companies won't "work with you" (meaning discount themselves to death). Surprise: if you want things made here, you have to pay a premium.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Really? I think PS stopped their bespoke service and have 2 MtM program I'm aware, one is with Samuelsohn, and one is the new Custom Lab made in China thing (with cheaper start pricing too), which line is Oxxford?

I know some RTW top of the line is made in America (instead of use to be Isaia quite a while ago), I assume those are Oxxford,? but thought those are phasing out too?

I see some cheaper Made in America ones as well, I assume those are HF.

As of last Fall/Winter they were offering it. This was in Chicago, so I’m not sure about NYC or the other locations.

They used Holland & Sherry fabrics. I believe it started at around $4500. I didn’t ask if it was bespoke or MTM.

Unfortunately I haven’t stepped foot in there since around last November so that maybe gone as you said.

 

[dauster]

Let's set fault aside. I'm only saying that there are still companies that offer classic, American-made garments and accessories. If people actually care about these things, they have to support those companies by purchasing at full price. Companies can't survive on 50% discounts and factory seconds.

This reminds me of this headline. At a "Bikers for Trump" rally, the organization's founder says that he wants to bring American manufacturing back. Yet, he has his t-shirts made in Haiti. His response? American manufacturing is too expensive, prices are inflated, and companies won't "work with you" (meaning discount themselves to death). Surprise: if you want things made here, you have to pay a premium.

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Agreed. But reality is everybody says they want people to work in great conditions and things to be made locally but we all have I-phones that are basically made by slaves and most people I know shop at H&M, Zara and even worse Primemark. Hell even Dior T-Shirts for $200-300 are made in Turkey and not France.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Let's set fault aside. I'm only saying that there are still companies that offer classic, American-made garments and accessories. If people actually care about these things, they have to support those companies by purchasing at full price. Companies can't survive on 50% discounts and factory seconds.

This reminds me of this headline. At a "Bikers for Trump" rally, the organization's founder says that he wants to bring American manufacturing back. Yet, he has his t-shirts made in Haiti. His response? American manufacturing is too expensive, prices are inflated, and companies won't "work with you" (meaning discount themselves to death). Surprise: if you want things made here, you have to pay a premium.

View attachment 1424113

the key to this entire mess is to restart the practice of colonizing in the 3rd world.

 

[EdwardWilson]

Number one selling ties in the world. Made in China.

 

[JJ Katz]

One thing I don’t fully get, in this discussion: people keep talking about the drastic reduction in suit wearing as a major determinant if BB’s demise but they sell all sorts of clothes besides suits.

 

[EdwardWilson]

One thing I don’t fully get, in this discussion: people keep talking about the drastic reduction in suit wearing as a major determinant if BB’s demise but they sell all sorts of clothes besides suits.

Yes but Brooks Brothers are known as a classic suit and tie and professional attire store.

So you are right, they sell jeans and polo shirts and shorts. But I would guess the overwhelming majority of their floorspace and sales are directed at formal wear. It is not realistic for BB to change their brand from Classic Americana to the men's section at Nordstrom.

And quite honestly, I find most of their casual clothes to be hideous. Their casual clothes seem to market to the professionally dressed man who picks up weekend clothes while suit shopping. Or his wife does.

 

[smittycl]

Really? I think PS stopped their bespoke service and have 2 MtM program I'm aware, one is with Samuelsohn, and one is the new Custom Lab made in China thing (with cheaper start pricing too), which line is Oxxford?

I know some RTW top of the line is made in America (instead of use to be Isaia quite a while ago), I assume those are Oxxford,? but thought those are phasing out too?

I see some cheaper Made in America ones as well, I assume those are HF.

Stuart's Choice is (or at least was) Oxxford. I have one Navy blue staple suit from them. Last time I was in the store (late last year I think) they had a Stuart's Choice with the Oxxford factory tag inside.

 

[smittycl]

Really? I think PS stopped their bespoke service and have 2 MtM program I'm aware, one is with Samuelsohn, and one is the new Custom Lab made in China thing (with cheaper start pricing too), which line is Oxxford?

I know some RTW top of the line is made in America (instead of use to be Isaia quite a while ago), I assume those are Oxxford,? but thought those are phasing out too?

I see some cheaper Made in America ones as well, I assume those are HF.

I checked their website and they don't seem to have any Italian suits available. They had some $4-5k suits last year that I thought were Santandrea but I could be wrong. Here's their most expensive Made in USA suit online. Oxxford? Kind of pricey for HF unless the price reflects more of the fabric than the construction.

 

[othertravel]

Let's set fault aside. I'm only saying that there are still companies that offer classic, American-made garments and accessories. If people actually care about these things, they have to support those companies by purchasing at full price. Companies can't survive on 50% discounts and factory seconds.

This reminds me of this headline. At a "Bikers for Trump" rally, the organization's founder says that he wants to bring American manufacturing back. Yet, he has his t-shirts made in Haiti. His response? American manufacturing is too expensive, prices are inflated, and companies won't "work with you" (meaning discount themselves to death). Surprise: if you want things made here, you have to pay a premium.

View attachment 1424113

But to the point made above, BB has to offer something compelling. And their clothes just aren’t that. That’s not to say the sack-suit style is the problem. Even their Italian-style models were/are meh.

Zegna and Canali have successfully stepped in to where BB used to be in terms of appealing to the aspirational shopper. And they have enough models to appeal to anybody.

On a related note, I was at a BB charity function a few years back, and was wearing a Zegna tie. One of the reps really liked the tie and asked what brand it was. I replied, and he said something to the effect of, ‘Yeah, Brooks would never sell a tie that nice’. And that was from their employee.