Would You Take Perfect Machine Made or Imperfect Handmade?

[dieworkwear]

There's one thing that doesn't seem to be being discussed here and that's the fact that there is a big difference between automated, made by a person with a machine, and hand-stitched; and 2. that these categories do not necessarily translate automatically to 'evil big business', corporate and independent artisan (respectively). There are plenty of machine-made clothes that are made in small factories with connection to the community, by well-paid employees. This is what economic geographers call the "third Italy" model and its not just Prada (as it used to be), Brunello Cuccinelli and the like, it's also SEH Kelly in London, it's most of Okayama producers in Japan. Then there are also the piecework producers like Old Town in the UK, most of whose clothes are 'machine-made' but by independent local producers. Is it somehow better if your clothes are made by a bloke on Savile Row with a needle and thread or by a woman in here home in Suffolk with a sewing machine, who earns a decent wage? And the nature of sweatshop producers is such that, especially in the larger ones catering to multilple labels, there could be everything being done from almost fully automated production through humans working with machines to handwork - all within the same 'factory'. It's not like handwork necessitates a personal relationship with a client or implies better pay and working conditions.

To add on to this: A few months ago, I spoke with Daniel Wegan, former lastmaker at Gaziano & Girling and now an independent shoemaker. We talked about the state of the trade and why some large West End bespoke shoemaking firms are pushing out such horribly made shoes. He said that it's a combination of a couple of things.

The outworkers are paid very little, maybe about 300 GBP for a pair of shoes. To make ends meet, they have to complete a number of shoes per week, which means slapdash work.

Additionally, most people in a large shoemaking firm don't see the client. They are simply given a job to do, and if management doesn't complain about the shoddy work and they never have to look a client in the eye, they just finish whatever needs to be done. According to him, there's very little pride in the work. This view was echoed to me by another British bespoke shoemaker (not Nicholas Temepleman).

So I'm not sure that bespoke or handcraft necessarily means that the artisan puts a lot of love into their work. Depending on the organizational structure, pay, and other variables, they may just be slapping something together. This is even from very reputable, "high-end" firms.

I think to have a connection with the craftsperson, it helps to work with shops run by the person making your item. I also think this is something of a personal character issue. Some people may work independently and take great care and pride in the work; others may not, even if they look at a client in the eye.

 

[blipstein]

I love this debate and you make some interesting points.

1) From the outside, I agree - telling a hand-made vs. machine made garment by eye can be tough. My comment is more for the feeling of the wearer. Brioni has also switched to machine padded lapels and collars - and I know this from having taken them apart to alter for clients.

2) If you know what you're looking for though - you can tell from the outside if the lapel and collar are machine padded or hand, but those aren't areas that are facing to our public. They are hidden on the underside of each.

I'll also just add in that I am not a tailor myself so am not defending a tailor's position. I started my business in the menswear industry having partnered with a 3rd generation master tailor who was still making a beautiful hand-made suit. As I developed the relationship and moved on from him to find other suppliers, I continued to learn all the different methods of constructing a suit, but never lost the appreciation of the artistry a tailor possesses. I am more of that "front of house guy" but one that knows tailoring to the extent of the different ways it's done just short of picking up a needle and thread and doing it myself.

I have a true master tailor on my staff, who can make a true benchmade garment now. We are working on being able to offer this experience to our clients, but it is still in development as we continue to grow. The amount of time that goes into one suit is tremendous and we cannot sacrifice the finishing work that needs to go into the volume of suits we're already selling from third-party makers. Along with learning from him, I've made several trips to Saville row to speak with tailors there about their passion and the various beliefs of what is "right" (every tailor will insist that their way is right and every other tailor does things wrong - I don't take that at face value but rather gather opinions and reasons from all of them to form my own basis of thought). It's an interesting debate for sure, and I'm sure one that will never have a consensus.

For fun - I'm attaching a 2 pictures of a chest piece done by hand so those who aren't familiar can see. The first (laid flat) is a canvas my tailor was making me as we tested the process for timing. The 2nd is a tailor in London sewing on his bench. The preciseness of each of these stitches would never be replicated by a machine that moves in only one direction or at best a zigzag. The lapel stitching would be similar and I'm happy to provide hand lapel and collar examples if anyone is interested.

 

[dieworkwear]

2) If you know what you're looking for though - you can tell from the outside if the lapel and collar are machine padded or hand, but those aren't areas that are facing to our public. They are hidden on the underside of each.

Do you mean the dimpling that typically occurs through hand padding?

This is also what I believed until I received a garment with no visible dimpling on the underside of the lapel. The fabric has no nap, so it's not something that would be covered by the fibers. I showed the garment to two tailors, both very experienced in their trade. One said that he believes this is still hand-padded.

 

[Brendon]

Hi All
It is really interesting the conversation. some of these discussions are what I had when I was transitioning from MTM to bespoke. The good mind is curious and skeptical and I think it's good to justify your work. MTM is significantly easier than bespoke. A shop assistant takes measurements on a standardized form and off it goes and back comes a suit. The salesman tells you how wonderful you look and you are in lovely surrounds. The suit comes with a branded bag and if it doesn't mention the word bespoke it will certainly use words like craftsmen or a tradition of fine tailoring. There capacity to sell suits is fairly limitless. You will even go on a database that reinforces your choice. When you talk about your suit you will say I had it tailored and this is what most will do. But this will never be a good and I use the word good bespoke suit and here is why.
I will use the word me when talking about a good bespoke tailor but I know better ones in the UK who wont appreciate me using names. So here we go... When you visit me I will guide you through the cloth. Not all cloths are equal obviously. But some cloth shine easier than others, some crease more, some the seams wont take flattening and some wont work up. So cloth fit for purpose is important. Measuring is not difficult but what is is the experience of your block. I can look at a pattern that I have drafted and tell whether it's right. At that point I can't say how it will fit but I will get a sense. Cutting out is standard with good generous inlays allowing for flexibility of action through the process. The cloth is worked slightly for the first fitting based on what is measured and observed. I will talk as to the making of the canvas here. The layers are previously mentioned. And no machine I would imagine could do this as the fullness is not uniform in the canvas. So to create a truly magnificent chest fullness is fed in to the length and width of the horse hair in varying amounts. There must be no tension visible from the other side. Otherwise it shows through for the life of the garment. With the fullness sewn in with a few thousand stitches the canvas must be worked up with a heavy iron. to develop the shoulder points and develop the chest. When a well made bespoke suit is worn, right from day 1, it slightly presses into you just above your chest. It is an unusual feeling but it comes about when there is room at the shoulder point and the chest in nicely developed. Which incidentally is what makes you look slim! Making a coat tighter does not make you look slim it just makes you look like you are wearing a tight coat. carrying on, by the time you are through to the second fitting the waist of the coat is developed more. By taking out a wedge from the coat side seam and sewing up the waist can be well suppressed. A centre vent will give a slimmer silhouette from the front view. In a previous post I mentioned the limiting nature of a check. Assuming this is not a check then.... Fullness is added to the side seam behind the scye Just above it the cloth will be gathered by stitch shrunk and linen stay tape will ensure a clean scye on a straighter coat. The sleeve is sewn in by hand. So why is this important. several reasons really. Fullness is not constant in the sleeve and if you have ever seen a sleeve sewn in by machine the pitch is skew because the machine drags the sleeve just slightly. Look at the photos of any suit or coat on this site and the right sleeve will have a bigger gap just sitting a little off the hand more. I can see it on some photo's in recent posts. and please note here I do not wish to make anyone feel bad about a garment. apologies if I do so. The hind arm of the sleeve must have some depth to allow for movement. A good bespoke suit you should be able to shake hands up to the elbow and the should of the coat should not move !!
I cut an old fashioned 50/50 sleeve which I think is the best sleeve. The seam shows at the cuff but the shape is superior, more curve with the arm. The other sleeve is called the false forearm. a lot of tailors use this as well but it has a tendency to break a little in the small of the arm if not shrunk properly. factory sleeves are bi in all the wrong places and small in the others in my opinion. I have yet to see one I would want to cut. There was a bit of talk about the pad stitching of the lapel. The stitches behind the lapel should almost be invisible. They will still do their job of rolling the lapel. ie the inside vs the outside of a curve distance. But the stitches that set the bridle will be visible as they draw the cloth in. Looking at the inside pocket another difference. The inside breast is sewn to the canvas. You could carry a good sized spanner in there and it would stay. The outside breast can be cut through the canvas for a very clean chest. A well done coat will never have the lapel curl up or the leaf edge on the collar roll up showing the melton over time as I often see on factory suits after a few dry cleans. When the collar is put on by hand as I do and drawn together this will never happen.
A hand made buttonhole if done by a young person with good eyes who does virtually nothing else is far superior to a factory machined buttonhole. Having said that the gimp you could buy 50 years ago is far superior to the gimp of today. Thinner and harder.
The pressing of a coat is really important. The hand sets the coat in places and then it must be allowed a day to dry. I can make a seam almost invisible using linen holland to press off. Not David Copperfield invisible.
Oops I have run out of time again but just simple things like cutting the dress in a trouser make the trouser much more comfortable. Bending the legs of a trouser with a heavy iron increases the fit greatly.
But the most important thing is that despite tailors facing battle to get the clean finish a factory suit has and not all do. No MTM factory suit will Ever and I mean ever I mean similar to buying a lottery ticket you have a similar chance fit. They cannot fit. You cannot try on a coat made up a block if you like, take measurements then have the new coat again made up completely and say hey presto. solutions in tailoring compete against each other, it is a process of discovery and work arounds. It can only be done when you can take a backward step to go forwards. ie rip the thing apart to flat re cut re work and re sew. The cut is what matters above all else. What the MTM are producing generally is a cut that does not flatter the male figure. It is more feminine and crooked in its cut, removing the chest, A very easy exercise to understand this. Biologically a man generally has wider shoulders and narrower hips relative to a woman. They have the reverse. Read the paper or book "where did I come from" you will understand the why. Draw a crucifix type cross on a paper. Head at the top. The mans shoulders on the points of the cross. When the front edge of the coat follows closer to the line of the centre of the cross the hip sits in closer. When crooked away from the line the hip is wider relative to the shoulder. Very simple more like a woman's figure. Hope that helps apologies for the length of the post hard to be brief, enjoying the thread Brendon

 

[othertravel]

Spier is a great company, with some excellent products, but my MTM experience with them was disappointing (so machine made isn’t always dependable - even by a reputable company). In fairness, they did offer to make it right.

 

[double00]

there is a real *fork in the road* quality to this convo but

i don't think that is warranted as the markets are so broad and deep

that really there is room to both support human work

and machine ! so . i'll take both thank you .

***

ultimately whether i'm supporting a machine operator

or a hand worker

with custom , $$ , or advert ...

it is the human vision that i try to support

$.02 !

 

[Brendon]

Machine made is generally dependable in make in that the level that they consistently

I love this debate and you make some interesting points.

1) From the outside, I agree - telling a hand-made vs. machine made garment by eye can be tough. My comment is more for the feeling of the wearer. Brioni has also switched to machine padded lapels and collars - and I know this from having taken them apart to alter for clients.

2) If you know what you're looking for though - you can tell from the outside if the lapel and collar are machine padded or hand, but those aren't areas that are facing to our public. They are hidden on the underside of each.

I'll also just add in that I am not a tailor myself so am not defending a tailor's position. I started my business in the menswear industry having partnered with a 3rd generation master tailor who was still making a beautiful hand-made suit. As I developed the relationship and moved on from him to find other suppliers, I continued to learn all the different methods of constructing a suit, but never lost the appreciation of the artistry a tailor possesses. I am more of that "front of house guy" but one that knows tailoring to the extent of the different ways it's done just short of picking up a needle and thread and doing it myself.

I have a true master tailor on my staff, who can make a true benchmade garment now. We are working on being able to offer this experience to our clients, but it is still in development as we continue to grow. The amount of time that goes into one suit is tremendous and we cannot sacrifice the finishing work that needs to go into the volume of suits we're already selling from third-party makers. Along with learning from him, I've made several trips to Saville row to speak with tailors there about their passion and the various beliefs of what is "right" (every tailor will insist that their way is right and every other tailor does things wrong - I don't take that at face value but rather gather opinions and reasons from all of them to form my own basis of thought). It's an interesting debate for sure, and I'm sure one that will never have a consensus.

For fun - I'm attaching a 2 pictures of a chest piece done by hand so those who aren't familiar can see. The first (laid flat) is a canvas my tailor was making me as we tested the process for timing. The 2nd is a tailor in London sewing on his bench. The preciseness of each of these stitches would never be replicated by a machine that moves in only one direction or at best a zigzag. The lapel stitching would be similar and I'm happy to provide hand lapel and collar examples if anyone is interested.

Hi thank you for the photos. the picture of the one in London is correct method to the canvas. The other photo if you would like to private message me I could discuss this with you. I cannot recommend highly enough to anyone interested in learning Tailoring, the Rory Duffy online tutorials. I have 2 students currently and I have recommended this to them. The next generation of tailors comes from the generosity of tailors sharing knowledge and even though RD is charging a fee the knowledge he is passing on you would normally need to be apprenticed to gain from. The other good tutorials that are free and cover a few things are from Rudolph Popradi the Hungarian ?Canadian ?Tailor. Old school as you say.

 

[Brendon]

Example of pad stitching the canvas Camel hair then horse then domette, Pre trimming and working up, the chest is already developing. The dirty side view shows the bumps of domette that contact the chest to puff it out. The lapel rolls back with the pad stitching the stay tape curling back with the pad stitching. No tension length ways on the stiching and using a fine silk thread means the camel hair canvas will look very clean on the make side. All done by hand to ensure the canvas is permanently shaped and specific to this one man. Right side so no O/B pocket to go through canvas.

 

[MattyS]

In this case, which would you rather buy? Let's say the prices are exactly the same -- say $2,500 for a suit. That makes it painful enough that you'll be bummed if you don't get exactly what you want. Do you value the perfect suit, even if it's machine-made? Or do you prefer the slightly imperfect suit that was handmade?

My guess is that I would opt for the handmade, slightly imperfect suit but also judge myself as being rather irrational for doing so.

 

[DWFII]

The thing that comes through in all of this is that the "perfection" being talked about is fundamentally about appearance--with most or all construction techniques being ignored or discounted. It's hard to escape the thought that for, some at least, the superficial is more important than the substance.

Something I've suspected for a long time.

But, IMO, it's not a definition of quality, or authenticity.

If that counts for anything, these days. .

 

[FlyingMonkey]

The thing that comes through in all of this is that the "perfection" being talked about is fundamentally about appearance-

That's not how I'm reading it. I was assuming that it was "all things being equal", i.e both suits are going to be of equivalent utility and quality. And perfect fit isn't just about appearance, it's about how it feels.

 

[DWFII]

That's not how I'm reading it. I was assuming that it was "all things being equal", i.e both suits are going to be of equivalent utility and quality.

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but at least from this perspective, once the predicates of "machine made" vs. "handmade" are introduced, there can be no "all things being equal."

Each approach has its own raison d'etre--'mission', as who should say. And again, from this vantage, they are not, cannot be, compatible. "Irreconcilable," is the word that comes to mind.

Just something to think about...FWIW.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but at least from this perspective, once the predicates of "machine made" vs. "handmade" are introduced, there can be no "all things being equal."

Well, having read other things you've written, I would have expected you to say that! But assuming that machines could do all the specific jobs as well or better than humans, what you are left with is some ineffable quality, like 'soul' or less spiritually, 'prestige.' So, you're right: we are just left with an incommensurable problem. And the answer will be exactly as I wrote in my first page of this thread - that handmade will continue to exist as a niche market regardless of the relative perfection of machinemade.

 

[taxgenius]

Hi All
It is really interesting the conversation. some of these discussions are what I had when I was transitioning from MTM to bespoke. The good mind is curious and skeptical and I think it's good to justify your work. MTM is significantly easier than bespoke. A shop assistant takes measurements on a standardized form and off it goes and back comes a suit. The salesman tells you how wonderful you look and you are in lovely surrounds. The suit comes with a branded bag and if it doesn't mention the word bespoke it will certainly use words like craftsmen or a tradition of fine tailoring. There capacity to sell suits is fairly limitless. You will even go on a database that reinforces your choice. When you talk about your suit you will say I had it tailored and this is what most will do. But this will never be a good and I use the word good bespoke suit and here is why.
I will use the word me when talking about a good bespoke tailor but I know better ones in the UK who wont appreciate me using names. So here we go... When you visit me I will guide you through the cloth. Not all cloths are equal obviously. But some cloth shine easier than others, some crease more, some the seams wont take flattening and some wont work up. So cloth fit for purpose is important. Measuring is not difficult but what is is the experience of your block. I can look at a pattern that I have drafted and tell whether it's right. At that point I can't say how it will fit but I will get a sense. Cutting out is standard with good generous inlays allowing for flexibility of action through the process. The cloth is worked slightly for the first fitting based on what is measured and observed. I will talk as to the making of the canvas here. The layers are previously mentioned. And no machine I would imagine could do this as the fullness is not uniform in the canvas. So to create a truly magnificent chest fullness is fed in to the length and width of the horse hair in varying amounts. There must be no tension visible from the other side. Otherwise it shows through for the life of the garment. With the fullness sewn in with a few thousand stitches the canvas must be worked up with a heavy iron. to develop the shoulder points and develop the chest. When a well made bespoke suit is worn, right from day 1, it slightly presses into you just above your chest. It is an unusual feeling but it comes about when there is room at the shoulder point and the chest in nicely developed. Which incidentally is what makes you look slim! Making a coat tighter does not make you look slim it just makes you look like you are wearing a tight coat. carrying on, by the time you are through to the second fitting the waist of the coat is developed more. By taking out a wedge from the coat side seam and sewing up the waist can be well suppressed. A centre vent will give a slimmer silhouette from the front view. In a previous post I mentioned the limiting nature of a check. Assuming this is not a check then.... Fullness is added to the side seam behind the scye Just above it the cloth will be gathered by stitch shrunk and linen stay tape will ensure a clean scye on a straighter coat. The sleeve is sewn in by hand. So why is this important. several reasons really. Fullness is not constant in the sleeve and if you have ever seen a sleeve sewn in by machine the pitch is skew because the machine drags the sleeve just slightly. Look at the photos of any suit or coat on this site and the right sleeve will have a bigger gap just sitting a little off the hand more. I can see it on some photo's in recent posts. and please note here I do not wish to make anyone feel bad about a garment. apologies if I do so. The hind arm of the sleeve must have some depth to allow for movement. A good bespoke suit you should be able to shake hands up to the elbow and the should of the coat should not move !!
I cut an old fashioned 50/50 sleeve which I think is the best sleeve. The seam shows at the cuff but the shape is superior, more curve with the arm. The other sleeve is called the false forearm. a lot of tailors use this as well but it has a tendency to break a little in the small of the arm if not shrunk properly. factory sleeves are bi in all the wrong places and small in the others in my opinion. I have yet to see one I would want to cut. There was a bit of talk about the pad stitching of the lapel. The stitches behind the lapel should almost be invisible. They will still do their job of rolling the lapel. ie the inside vs the outside of a curve distance. But the stitches that set the bridle will be visible as they draw the cloth in. Looking at the inside pocket another difference. The inside breast is sewn to the canvas. You could carry a good sized spanner in there and it would stay. The outside breast can be cut through the canvas for a very clean chest. A well done coat will never have the lapel curl up or the leaf edge on the collar roll up showing the melton over time as I often see on factory suits after a few dry cleans. When the collar is put on by hand as I do and drawn together this will never happen.
A hand made buttonhole if done by a young person with good eyes who does virtually nothing else is far superior to a factory machined buttonhole. Having said that the gimp you could buy 50 years ago is far superior to the gimp of today. Thinner and harder.
The pressing of a coat is really important. The hand sets the coat in places and then it must be allowed a day to dry. I can make a seam almost invisible using linen holland to press off. Not David Copperfield invisible.
Oops I have run out of time again but just simple things like cutting the dress in a trouser make the trouser much more comfortable. Bending the legs of a trouser with a heavy iron increases the fit greatly.
But the most important thing is that despite tailors facing battle to get the clean finish a factory suit has and not all do. No MTM factory suit will Ever and I mean ever I mean similar to buying a lottery ticket you have a similar chance fit. They cannot fit. You cannot try on a coat made up a block if you like, take measurements then have the new coat again made up completely and say hey presto. solutions in tailoring compete against each other, it is a process of discovery and work arounds. It can only be done when you can take a backward step to go forwards. ie rip the thing apart to flat re cut re work and re sew. The cut is what matters above all else. What the MTM are producing generally is a cut that does not flatter the male figure. It is more feminine and crooked in its cut, removing the chest, A very easy exercise to understand this. Biologically a man generally has wider shoulders and narrower hips relative to a woman. They have the reverse. Read the paper or book "where did I come from" you will understand the why. Draw a crucifix type cross on a paper. Head at the top. The mans shoulders on the points of the cross. When the front edge of the coat follows closer to the line of the centre of the cross the hip sits in closer. When crooked away from the line the hip is wider relative to the shoulder. Very simple more like a woman's figure. Hope that helps apologies for the length of the post hard to be brief, enjoying the thread Brendon

Paragraphs would be great.

 

[dieworkwear]

Paragraphs would be great.

Would you take a perfect machine-written paragraph or an imperfect hand-written paragraph?