Dress shirts - Turnbull & Asser, Thomas Pink, TM Lewin & the like

[ec1]

So I'm in the market for a dress shirt to go with a dinner suit. I appreciate there's a hierarchy catalogued around here, the top tier being Turnbull & Asser, Budd and Emma Willis. Then you have the likes of Thomas Pink and further down you have TM Lewin. My one question being - what really justifies the cost of the top tier being £300 a shirt vs £35 a shirt from top end to bottom end?

Are the top tier really worth the price difference?

 

[JohnMRobie]

Not sure if this is what you had in mind but most of menswear is like anything else - you’ve got:
Labor - which can be viewed through multiple lenses that will include base labor cost and generally can be impacted by local labor costs, the amount of labor things like time, handwork, etc and knowledge/skill. For example a skilled craftsman will make more than someone slapping a shirt together on a machine. Someone making you a bespoke shirt on their own needs to charge more per shirt, someone cranking out factory shirts can increase volume to hit their number. A workshop is somewhere in between.

Materials - short version is materials costs vary. I think most guys don’t realize how expensive materials can get though. But if we assume you’re going for pretty standard shirting it’s coming out at roughly 150cm wide. Most guys need anywhere from 1.5-1.8M per shirt. A pretty good workhorse cloth can run anywhere from €25M-€50 or so ex vat or so. Some crazy fabrics can get up to €200/M. Vintage woven stuff is usually 90cm wide it’s typically more expensive to start and you’ll need more. Call it 2.5M. You can obviously find less expensive shirting to hit lower costs if need be

X Factor - Things like experience, style, ability to guide you to what you’re looking for, brand cache, etc all fall in here and are hard to quantify. There’s something to be said for going to an Emma, Wil, D’Avino, Luca Avitable etc and letting them help with picking a collar that suits your face, picking shirting that suits your lifestyle, helping dial in your fit, etc.

When it comes to shirts you typically have at the entry level price cheap materials assembled in a country with relatively lower labor costs in a factory setting done by machine with (typically) lower attention to detail. These brands tend to be made to fit as many people as possible but don’t fit many people particularly well.

You’ll have to determine what boxes you care about checking and none of that is meant to say you can only get a good shirt at the top tier but picking what it is you personally prioritize is helpful. I tend to prioritize fit, fabric, then details. I’m less concerned with cache and handwork.

If you’ve got patience, experience and are willing to do some work you can cut some corners and get a better shirt at a lower cost. If you’re willing to gamble on a younger or lesser known maker you’ll typically find some lower costs. If you want quick, easy, best that’ll cost more.

 

[Shirtmaven]

Turnbull Budd And Emma Willis all make their shirts in their own work rooms. At least this is my understanding. Thomas pink was shut down during the pandemic. Sadly, they had brought in a new design director and moved production to India. I would also guess they were producing in Monti's Indian mill that turns out nice fabric
Most of the mid price shirt companies have are making in factories using the same automated equipment.
Not much personality in those garments.
Prices are determined by fabric costs, country of production, and merchandising expenses.
@Jmr928 you are way high on your cost per meter for fabric.. you are quoting retail prices. One of the reasons propercloth keeps their prices down is because they give the mills nice orders.
Turnbull pays slightly higher prices because they are buying the mill minimums for exclusive designs.

I have seen well made shirts from Poland, Emanuel Berg.
Saks fifth ave has a private label collection made in Albania that looks good. I have seen well made shirts from numerous North African countries.
So my answer to you is buy what you like that suits your wallet and don't get too hung up on High end brands.
Look at the way the shirt is seen. Feel the fabric, feel the collar.
You will soon be able to distinguish between good and not so good.

 

[comrade]

Hilditch and Key soon to be on sale.

Dress Shirts

Hilditch & Key, providing luxury menswear since 1899. Explore the collection of Knitwear, loungewear, footwear and of course our famous shirts.

www.hilditchandkey.co.uk

 

[DaAlSh]

I've bought multiple dress shirts from Turnbull and Asser, Budd (the most classic), Emma Willis and Hilditch & Key. I'd say the quality of all of them is the same, so Hilditch & Key is the best value. Budd tends to be least fitted (not much good if you are slim) and although there's not much in it, I've had most problems with Emma Willis (who tends to be slightly more expensive than the others). I didn't rank Thomas Pink before they went bust, and doubt that the quality has improved since....

However, for the price (or less) of these all except H & K, I would use Stephen Lachter, shirtmaker at Kent Haste and Lachter (full disclosure - he's my shirtmaker).

DavidS

 

[Camerashy]

I've bought multiple dress shirts from Turnbull and Asser, Budd (the most classic), Emma Willis and Hilditch & Key. I'd say the quality of all of them is the same, so Hilditch & Key is the best value. Budd tends to be least fitted (not much good if you are slim) and although there's not much in it, I've had most problems with Emma Willis (who tends to be slightly more expensive than the others). I didn't rank Thomas Pink before they went bust, and doubt that the quality has improved since....

However, for the price (or less) of these all except H & K, I would use Stephen Lachter, shirtmaker at Kent Haste and Lachter (full disclosure - he's my shirtmaker).

DavidS

I see there is a minimum order of 4 for the first time with Stephen Lachter shirts
What’s a ball park figure for a button down please

 

[comrade]

Another word on Hilditch. I am broad with a big chest and shoulders.
I wear their Contemoporary Model which is a bit more fitted than the
Classical Fit. I wear 16.5 34/5. The Contemporary Model in this size has
a 50 inch chest. If one looks on the sizes available for different shirts there
is a "size guide" just above the sizes that gives the measurements of
each size.

Contemporary Fit, Cutaway Collar, Double Cuff Dress Shirt With Pleated

Hilditch & Key, providing luxury menswear since 1899. Explore the collection of Knitwear, loungewear, footwear and of course our famous shirts.

www.hilditchandkey.co.uk

 

[comrade]

Another option a lot less expensive is Harvie and Hudson. I have some of their shirts from more
than 10 years ago which are very decent. Here's their Dress Shirt:

Displaying results for dress shirt | Harvie and Hudson

At Harvie and Hudson, we keep a comprehensive range of quality items.

www.harvieandhudson.com

They also have a "fit guide" somewhere on their website.

 

[DaAlSh]

I see there is a minimum order of 4 for the first time with Stephen Lachter shirts
What’s a ball park figure for a button down please

His prices start at £275 per shirt, but this obviously depends on the material (as it happens I've got an order with him at the moment for two button downs in an oxford cloth at this price).

Harvie and Hudson are perfectly decent, but I wouldn't put them in the same class as the above.

 

[ec1]

Thank you to all for the help. It's been really helpful.

Hilditch and Key soon to be on sale.

Dress Shirts

Hilditch & Key, providing luxury menswear since 1899. Explore the collection of Knitwear, loungewear, footwear and of course our famous shirts.

www.hilditchandkey.co.uk

May I ask when this will start? What's the best way to purchase them?

 

[comrade]

Thank you to all for the help. It's been really helpful.



May I ask when this will start? What's the best way to purchase them?

Based on the last several years they will be going on sale June- July
and then again January- February. I've bought them online a few years ago as well
as at Sales Fifh Ave, maybe 15 years ago. Their customer service is excellent.
as is Harvie and Hudson years ago.

 

[ec1]

I've bought multiple dress shirts from Turnbull and Asser, Budd (the most classic), Emma Willis and Hilditch & Key. I'd say the quality of all of them is the same, so Hilditch & Key is the best value. Budd tends to be least fitted (not much good if you are slim) and although there's not much in it, I've had most problems with Emma Willis (who tends to be slightly more expensive than the others). I didn't rank Thomas Pink before they went bust, and doubt that the quality has improved since....

However, for the price (or less) of these all except H & K, I would use Stephen Lachter, shirtmaker at Kent Haste and Lachter (full disclosure - he's my shirtmaker).

DavidS

Thanks for this David. Do you have any experience with Suit Supply shirts woven at Tessitura Monti at all?

 

[DaAlSh]

Thanks for this David. Do you have any experience with Suit Supply shirts woven at Tessitura Monti at all?

Sorry, no. But I live quite close by Jermyn Street and have bought shirts from pretty much everyone along there and had settled on H&K until I met Stephen - and found that bespoke was often cheaper than many of the alternatives...!

DavidS

 

[Shirtmaven]

Do you know where the suit supply shirts are made?
monti is mostly weaving in India. if shirts are being made in India, then i know the factory and it makes a good shirt.

 

[ec1]

Do you know where the suit supply shirts are made?
monti is mostly weaving in India. if shirts are being made in India, then i know the factory and it makes a good shirt.

That I don’t know unfortunately - but as an example a shirt of theirs like this:

https://suitsupply.com/en-gb/men/shirts/white-slim-fit-tuxedo-shirt/H9296.html

Is there much difference between something like that and H&K?