Business Dress in India?

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by rssmsvc

Seriously ? I have never heard of anything like that before.

I don't know about your point about the Win-Lose thing or that the "White" guy should lose , but that may be the specific people you met with and maybe the location. I know in our conservative family , that business is rarely done that way because it is a waste of time. It is better to get the repeat customer than a one time kill and I know that is not how we do things. I do know people like you have described but I don't know anyone who does business with those people and that way and I think for many "old-school" families they wouldn't let their kids study or go near Mumbai, and I think I see why.


possibly. I sold to 4 of the 5 biggest companies in india, and probrably in 15 different cities, almost always at the CEO level of divisions. but, most of the people I worked with and sold to had been in the same industry - communications.

My understanding, and I may have understood incorrectly, that this was really old school gujarati business culture, not nessasarily new high tech culture. but then again, I might be wrong.

what type of business is your family in?

 

[romafan]

Originally Posted by lefty

But the women ... sweet Jesus, the women. That is, if you can get close to them. Obviously things have changed, but when I was in Bangalore about 10 years ago the pubs had a men's section and a women's/couples' section. A single woman could go into the men's section but not the other way around. Intimate contact was reserved for private house parties.

Along those lines, you have to get used to male contact in a social setting. It is not unusual to meet a fellow in a pub and find him resting his hand on your leg. Or holding your hand. Don't sweat it. It's non-sexual.

For the most part.

lefty

Mumbai has staggering number of sex workers (over 600,000?!). Mary Ellen Mark's book "Falkland Road", paints a disturbing picture of their miserably wretched existence...

 

[California Dreamer]

My (Indian) company trains all its Western employees (and Indians posted overseas) in cultural awareness. One thing that comes up all the time is the concept of “Indian time”. They are not a punctual people, and will regularly wander into meetings ten minutes late. This is not considered unusual or impolite, but can be a sign of them asserting status. However they will appreciate you being punctual. Meetings invariably start with 10-15 minutes of small talk before getting down to business, so allow plenty of time, and don’t get flustered by delays. Learn about cricket, especially what the Indian team has been up to lately. (http://www.cricinfo.com/). It is the national obsession, and the likes of Sachin Tendulkar are pretty much demigods. Cricket is an ever-reliable subject for small talk to break the ice at meetings, and an American who is knowledgeable about it will surprise and impress. Get comfortable with the Indian numbering system. You will probably encounter the terms “lakh” (meaning 100,000) and “crore” (100 lakh, or 10 million). Numbers are written differently too; where we would write 1,000,000, Indians will write 10,00,000 (10 lakh). Begging and panhandling is a way of life. Don’t get annoyed or rude, it’s just how they get by in difficult circumstances. For example, you will be hassled at the airport by people wanting to charge you to put your bags in the car. You can fight them off or give in. I told them I’d just arrived and had no Indian cash yet. Children are often exploited by professional beggars; you will need to make your own decisions about whether you give them anything. If you do give, prepare to be mobbed. You probably already know, but don’t drink the water. Drink only bottled water, including when brushing your teeth. Shower with your mouth closed. Don’t have ice cubes in your drink. A few other cultural things that we are trained in: Indians shake their head to mean “yes, I understand”, not to signal disagreement Don’t point or beckon with your fingers. Point with the chin or the whole hand (palm up). Beckon with the hand, palm-down, and fingers pulled inwards Don’t offer things or shake with your left hand. It is considered impure. (To be blunt, they eat with their right hand and, traditionally, do something else with their left, if you see what I mean). Religion and superstition play a big part in the culture. I have colleagues who consulted astrologers before accepting a foreign assignment, and flights are booked for auspicious days. That is not considered unusual. Indian men hold hands and hug as a sign of friendship. You will see this a lot – it doesn’t mean what it might in Sydney or SF. Indian men are not accustomed to women in authority, although that is slowly changing. Saving face and avoiding giving offence is very important. Indians will not say “no” directly as it is considered offensive, and will often say what they think you want to hear. They often say “yes” to mean that they understand – it doesn’t necessarily mean they agree. First meetings are formal and first names should be avoided. First names are for close friends, and are not shortened (it can change their meaning entirely) Indians value titles. If you have one, use it, and use theirs when addressing them. Small talk is important, and you may find yourself taken aback by the personal questions they ask you. They like to talk about family and friends. Cricket is always a good topic, as is travel, and Indian traditions. Avoid discussion of Indian poverty, caste system, military, foreign aid and relations with neighbouring countries. Business is very hierarchical. Although there may be a large contingent present, the most powerful will do the talking and make the decisions, and the rest will follow. Others will be invited to speak by the boss. Talks are indirect. Present reasons first, then conclusions. Use visuals in presentations (remember that they are working in their 2nd or even 3rd language). Keep written and oral language short and simple, and avoid slang, jargon etc. I can’t speak for other companies, but I find our dress rules Byzantine. At the start of the week, it is suit and tie. As the week goes on, the dress rules gradually relax day-by-day, until Friday is neat casual. (I once met with one of our founders, a billionaire with vast influence in Indian commerce, and he was dressed in a simple pair of khakis and a check shirt with a T-shirt underneath. That said, we are required to wear business dress when meeting with clients, so they will expect you to. They do take this seriously – staff that breach the dress rules are fined. You could do worse than to read Mike Stocks’ “White Man Falling” on the plane. It’s a very funny novel set in South India, and he captures the language, culture and customs really well. If you’d prefer more serious reading, Friedman’s “The World Is Flat” is a useful insight into Indian business – he got his idea from our CEO. Above all, be prepared to be blown away. I would go back in a heartbeat.

 

[AlanC]

Originally Posted by California Dreamer

You probably already know, but don’t drink the water. Drink only bottled water, including when brushing your teeth. Shower with your mouth closed. Don’t have ice cubes in your drink.
I've followed the above, certainly, however, in better hotels I've used the tap when brushing my teeth to no ill effects (not in 'not better' hotels, though). Generally you'll be provided with a couple of bottles of water in your room every day.

Don’t point or beckon with your fingers. Point with the chin or the whole hand (palm up). Beckon with the hand, palm-down, and fingers pulled inwards

For whatever reason, I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're describing here. I'd like to know, though.

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by AlanC

I've followed the above, certainly, however, in better hotels I've used the tap when brushing my teeth to no ill effects (not in 'not better' hotels, though). Generally you'll be provided with a couple of bottles of water in your room every day.


For whatever reason, I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're describing here. I'd like to know, though.

It's similar to what you would do if hailing a taxi in Malaysia. You don't hold you hand up with the palm facing the taxi as you would in NY, but rather hold your arm down at a 45 degree angle with the palm facing back and wiggle your fingers.

Great advice, CD. I had forgotten about the head shaking to signify, "I'm listening."

And I once had to change the date of a commercial I was shooting--costing many many crore--once the head of the ad agency did the astrological chart for the spot and discovered that three days later was a more auspicious day to begin.

Man, I miss India.

lefty

 

[rssmsvc]

Originally Posted by California Dreamer

For example, you will be hassled at the airport by people wanting to charge you to put your bags in the car. You can fight them off or give in. I told them I'd just arrived and had no Indian cash yet.

Do not do that. If they know you have foreign currency or that you are communicating, you will be bothered more. Just a polite "no" or a rude "na" will work.

Most of the other items are dead on, although the time thing again is a function of the people of the company. 10mins late with my Grandpa or Uncles and you would get a swift kick in the rear if you are family or light lecture if you were not.

The travel on certain days is quite frustrating but if you are alone it is a great time to travel. My wife and I had an empty 777 all the way back by taking advantage of this.

 

[globetrotter]

I would highly recomend against using regular transportation (although I did and do, often). get a hotel car, or a car from a limo service, and have him at your service all day. have the hotel pick you up at the airport.

this is not for safty - india isn't moscow, it is basically very safe. you can't imagine the potential for losing face that can happen over being stuck somewhere in bad whether without a reliable ride.

the whole issue of rank and dress are very much intertangled. as a young guy who is new to india, dealing with heavy rollers from big companies, you need to look well dressed. not dandified, mind you - leave the pocket square at home. but you need to look afluent and powerful. if, at any time, you give a hint that you are not of proper rank, you are screwed.

be prepared to have people test you - by that I mean, they may be very late for a meeting, or be out of town on the day your meeting is supposed to be, etc. this is usually them putting you in your place before the meeting. the key is to be patient and not get frazzled, but also not to suck up to much.

I have often seen people burn themselves in this - by positioning yourself with the lower levels, it makes it impossible for the key people to deal with you.

 

[em36]

Globetrotter's advice is spot-on. By the way, Parsis [Zoroasterians] will be far more punctual than most. Perform as much prior research as you are able on your interlocutor, including their social/business life and background, as he or she shall do the same with you. Indians are fantastic businesspeople able to conform to, and understand, most outside business cultures. However, respect in dress, manner, and conversation will go a long way.

Try the nightclub in the Intercontinental, turning right up the street from the Oberoi (fabulous hotel). The rooftop restaurant is not so bad, and one of the few outdoor dining establishments useful for business.

 

[StockwellDay]

Thanks for the advice everyone, extremely helpful. I fly out tonight. I'll post next week and share my experience & thoughts.

 

[AlanC]

Originally Posted by StockwellDay

Thanks for the advice everyone, extremely helpful. I fly out tonight. I'll post next week and share my experience & thoughts.

Are you taking the new Delta non-stop from NYC to Mumbai? It's much better than making a European connection, especially on the trip there. On the way back 16 hours can be a long time in one seat.

Have a great trip!

 

[Huntsman]

This has been the most interesting thread I've read in some time.

Thanks,
Huntsman

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by AlanC

Are you taking the new Delta non-stop from NYC to Mumbai? It's much better than making a European connection, especially on the trip there. On the way back 16 hours can be a long time in one seat.

Have a great trip!


last time I came I flew direct Delhi Chicago. very nice.

 

[rssmsvc]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

last time I came I flew direct Delhi Chicago. very nice.

I just flew American from Chicago to Delhi and it rocked, although coming back I had more checks than I have ever encountered.

 

[Tampan]

Working in the Indian oil sector, suits are expected, with tie, colour schemes are dull and pocket squares very rare. Shades of brown are quite popular, and can look great on the locals. Mumbai is not too hot this time of year but is humid, perhaps as one might describe Houston.

This thread has lots of great suggestions, but I've faced quite different negotiating styles. In government bids there can be an extreme focus on applying rules intended to prevent or reduce corruption. This may be the "L1" approach, which requires that at least two vendors be technically suitable, then the lowest price is chosen. This inevitably leads to choosing a low-price genericized solution. Gamesmanship around defining requirements to somehow make it expensive for your competitors, and requirements that limit bidding to just two vendors, takes precedence over more practical considerations...

And for some parts of the process you'll do all this while in the same meeting room as your competitors. You really need to plan your approach before such a meeting, which may be called a "prebid".

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Tampan

Working in the Indian oil sector, suits are expected, with tie, colour schemes are dull and pocket squares very rare. Shades of brown are quite popular, and can look great on the locals. Mumbai is not too hot this time of year but is humid, perhaps as one might describe Houston.

This thread has lots of great suggestions, but I've faced quite different negotiating styles. In government bids there can be an extreme focus on applying rules intended to prevent or reduce corruption. This may be the "L1" approach, which requires that at least two vendors be technically suitable, then the lowest price is chosen. This inevitably leads to choosing a low-price genericized solution. Gamesmanship around defining requirements to somehow make it expensive for your competitors, and requirements that limit bidding to just two vendors, takes precedence over more practical considerations...

And for some parts of the process you'll do all this while in the same meeting room as your competitors. You really need to plan your approach before such a meeting, which may be called a "prebid".
\\


T, do you work with RIL?