shoe construction...behind the veil

[Zapasman]

Hi DW and other experts, I would like to know why shoemakers/cordwainers don´t use really thick rubber heel taps on most of their shoes?. I hate to see some of my shoes mounting a thin rubber heel cover that I have to replace every two years or so. Why don´t you insert thicker ones for the benefit of clients?. Is it just a matter of aesthetics for each model?.


Thanks.

 

[DWFII]



Hi DW and other experts, I would like to know why  shoemakers/cordwainers don´t  use really thick rubber heel taps on most of their shoes?. I hate to see some of my shoes mounting a thin rubber heel cover that I have to replace every two years or so.  Why don´t you insert thicker ones for the benefit of clients?. Is it just a matter of aesthetics for each model?. 

I think it is. When I was coming up, there were "half" heels, "whole" heels and 5/8 heels, IIRC. And thick rubber heels were common even on relatively high end shoes. Of course, it's cheaper to use a thick rubber heel...not only is rubber cheaper (in the short term) than leather, but building a heel stack takes longer.

But stacked leather heels look so much better (oops..."IMO"). As I said in another post, a rubber outsole makes a $1800.00 shoe look like a $500.00 shoe, IMO. Same principle applies to rubber heels.

Then too a gentleman never walks on pavement or gravel and flower strewn carpets won't damage a leather heel or tax a suspect method of construction.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

[DWFII]



Sorry, but you're way off the mark with this reply. I was not making any comparison with the skills implied for HW construction. The discussion is about Blake/Blake rapid versus GY in terms of cost. You haven't provided any objective information to support the assertion that Blake rapid is a more expensive process than GY. Where are the facts? The Italian makers offering both Blake rapid and GY models always price the former below the latter. Doesn't make sense if the former is the more expensive process.

Well, I did the best I could. Ask someone else.

FWIW, skilled labour costs way more than unskilled labour. Not only in wages demanded, and paid, but in training costs and pension benefits upon retirement. Labour costs are a large part of any making / manufacturing operation...even bespoke and handwelted.

You cannot replace a skilled inseamer with a forklift driver. You can replace him with a machine but then the results change. IMO...professional and personal, people are not replaceable or interchangeable or dispensable except in the factory context. Nor should they be.

But that kind of thinking is consistent with the factory mentality, It nearly defines what the factory mentality is all about.

And it bleeds into every aspect of our lives if we don't resist it.

 

[Trqmaster]

What I find interesting is that in the DC area, (regarding RTW) most places selling a sewn shoe only seem to carry blake/bologna. Many brands are available and a lot of them can easily be found on sale and discounted. The sale prices start around $120 for a blake shoe and they are a dime a dozen. If I want a GY welted shoe, then I really have to look. Only a few places carry these and the prices are much higher. It's near impossible to find anywhere to purchase a HW or blake rapid shoe. I have to go to NY to get these types of construction. If this is the case, it has to be cheaper to make a blake shoe. Or at least fewer steps therefore reducing the labor cost. This is the only reasoning I can think of as to the wide availability of blake vs. other construction methods.

 

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Thanks for the replies, folks. vmss, you're right that simple Blake shoes make more sense in Italy than England. But Blake-Rapid make even more sense than Goodyear in a rainy climate like England. So why did Blake-Rapid vanish in England, and why is it so common in a sunny climate like Italy?

thelonius, good point that the Italians tend to price their Goodyear above their Blake Rapid and certainly their Blake. I wonder if DWF's point that Blake-Rapid and Blake requires more hand labor than Goodyear, along with chogall's that Goodyear requires more machines than either, might together help explain it. In a country where it is harder to get your hands on lots of machines than in England, and easier to have hand labor substitute for machines, you might focus production on the more hand-intensive work, and make the more machine-intensive products a more niche line. Lower volumes for the niche products could well mean higher prices than on the bigger volume products that demanded fewer machines.

Thanks for confirming on the low labor costs in Spain, zapas. I'm sure a lot of Italian factories use outworkers in Sicily or Tunisia or China, but somebody in northern Italy must put their hands on (say) Gravatis somewhere in the process.* Makes the "why all Goodyear and no Blake in Spain?" question even more interesting. I wonder if it could in part be because Italian culture has done more to preserve industrial handcraft than English or Spanish culture?

* = Just to take a hypothetical example of high-quality Italian manufacturers. I don't mean to say that Gravati in fact does this.

 

[DWFII]

I doubt that more machines represents an added cost in production. At worst for every machine employed, one man is laid off or replaced--that's often times a significant savings in time and labour costs.

At best three machines to do what would otherwise be a one man job is probably still a decrease in production costs if only because the company found reason and excuse...financial rationale...to buy three machines to replace one man.

 

[Testudo_Aubreii]



I doubt that more machines represents an added cost in production. At worst for every machine employed, one man is laid off or replaced--that's often times a significant savings in time and labour costs.

At best three machines to do what would otherwise be a one man job is probably still a decrease in production costs if only because the company found reason and excuse...financial rationale...to buy three machines to replace one man.

Ok, but we're talking about companies that also make Blake and/or Blake/Rapid in addition to Goodyear, right? So buying the extra Goodhyear machines isn't going to throw many guys out of work if the bulk of your production is already in Blake stitching, and continues to be.

 

[DWFII]



Ok, but we're talking about companies that also make Blake and/or Blake/Rapid in addition to Goodyear, right? So buying the extra Goodhyear machines isn't going to throw many guys out of work if the bulk of your production is already in Blake stitching, and continues to be.

We are?! My mistake..apologies. I thought the question was why have the British more or less abandoned Blake and B-R and gone to GY as opposed to the Italians, for instance.

 

[emptym]

Part of the higher prices for GY vs BR may be that consumers have been taught that GY is the "best." If so, businesses could charge more for GY even if BR was more expensive from a manufacturing standpoint.

Ron Rider would be able to comment on this with a good amount of expertise. His shoes are made in Italy w/ BR. I have a couple pairs that are about 8 yrs old, get a lot of use, and still are in great shape.

 

[DWFII]

Boy, that's hit the nail on the head!

An SF moderator told me not so long ago that most of the people on SF didn't know the difference between GY and HW until I came along. (I'm not making that claim, just repeating what I was told)

Most were convinced...some still are...that they were still getting "old world craftsmanship" and "the finest made shoes in (country of choice) "--thought they were still getting their grandfather's shoes...often at their grandfather's prices.

 

[emptym]

Yep, most didn't know the difference between GY and HW here. I think the first it was discussed was when A.Harris wrote about Vass.

 

[Whirling]

Most were convinced...some still are...that they were still getting "old world craftsmanship" and "the finest made shoes in (country of choice) "--thought they were still getting their grandfather's shoes...often at their grandfather's prices.

You can charge a lot higher mark-up on fantasy than you can on skilled labor and quality materials. Seriously, you can retail fantasy at 10,000% what it costs to produce.

 

[Testudo_Aubreii]



We are?! My mistake..apologies. I thought the question was why have the British more or less abandoned Blake and B-R and gone to GY as opposed to the Italians, for instance.

Yes, that's the overarching question. Your hypothesis that Blake and B-R take more hand labor and errors than GYW set us onto the subordinate question of why Italian firms make both types, but charge more for GYW than Blake or even B-R. So I was exploring a hypothesis about how the Italian industry might charge more for GYW than Blake. It was that despite Blake's higher handwork demands because buying all the Goodyear machines represents a significant upfront cost, especially in a country where credit is harder to come by than in England. I thought you were responding to that, not the overarching question; sorry.

My hypothesis about current Italian pricing of Blake vs. GYW assumes that most Italian firms were heavily into Blake before they got into GYW. That might be false. Does anybody have a sense of when Blake became widely used by quality Italian manufacturers vs. when GYW became widely (if in smaller volumes) used by Italian makers? DWF, I think you've said that Blake machines came into fairly wide use in England and the US before Goodyear machines did. I wonder whether that's also true in Italy? Or did the Italians jump from hand-welting straight into an industry in which Blake or Goodyear machines were equally viable options for purchase? Any thoughts, Bengal-stripe? Italian shoehounds?

 

[Testudo_Aubreii]



Part of the higher prices for GY vs BR may be that consumers have been taught that GY is the "best."  If so, businesses could charge more for GY even if BR was more expensive from a manufacturing standpoint.  

Ron Rider would be able to comment on this with a good amount of expertise.  His shoes are made in Italy w/ BR.  I have a couple pairs that are about 8 yrs old, get a lot of use, and still are in great shape.

Thanks, m. That's definitely true for the Anglophone market. Is it true for the Italian-speaking market? Are Italians also taught that GYW is better than B-R? Or is it just that the Italian makers make GYW shoes to sell primarily to the Anglophone market?

I'd say it was AHarris who led SF to see the distinction between GYW and hand-welted. But it was DWF who gave the arguments for why the latter is a superior construction method.

As for Spain and GYW. I forgot that Magnanni uses Bologna on a lot of its made in Spain shoes. Of course, they are consciously trying to look like Italian shoes.

 

[emptym]

I heard back from Kroop and Vogel. Kroop doesn't do handwelting. Vogel does. Soes are $1650 for the first par and 1100 for subsequent ones. Handwelting's an additional $400. So the first one would be over $1800, but if you got two, the average would be under.