Collar Roll - Structured vs. Unstructured Jackets

[daniel_suiting_quest]

I have a question for the fit experts of this forum. BLUF - will a structured suit from Tom Ford fit my broad and square shoulders more than an unstructured suit from Naples?

Over the past few years, I've started to favor Neapolitan suits (Isaia, Kiton), mostly for comfort - I really enjoy the minimal padding and structure in the jackets. I have found several great deals online so I'm paying only a fraction of the retail price. I am fairly broad and have square shoulders, so I'm able to fill out the jacket quite well - however, this often creates the issue of a collar roll.

My question is whether a more structured / square cut jacket (TF, Brioni, Zegna) will eliminate or minimize this issue.

I am getting married later this year and have been considering a bespoke suit for the occasion, mostly to ensure that I can ensure a perfect fit, i.e. no collar roll or collar gap, which is my biggest issue with OTR suits. But weddings are obviously quite expensive, and the bespoke tailor I am considering charges upwards of $5,000 for a fully bespoke suit. The other option I am considering is a Tom Ford suit, which I can purchase on eBay / on sale for under $2,000, saving me some considerable money. I know that TF suits are generally very structured, especially compared to the suits I currently own.

I've also heard anecdotally that the first bespoke suit with a tailor never turns out as well as the second or third - I'm not sure if investing $4,500+ and 4-6 months into a series of fittings only to be a bit let down with the result is the best use of my money.

Obviously I would take any OTR suit to an alterations tailor, but if major surgery is required it might make more sense to go bespoke. A related question I have is whether collar shortening / raising the back / whatever is needed to eliminate the collar roll will throw off the balance of the jacket.

A long winded question but curious if folks have thoughts!

 

[comrade]

I have a question for the fit experts of this forum. BLUF - will a structured suit from Tom Ford fit my broad and square shoulders more than an unstructured suit from Naples?

Over the past few years, I've started to favor Neapolitan suits (Isaia, Kiton), mostly for comfort - I really enjoy the minimal padding and structure in the jackets. I have found several great deals online so I'm paying only a fraction of the retail price. I am fairly broad and have square shoulders, so I'm able to fill out the jacket quite well - however, this often creates the issue of a collar roll.

My question is whether a more structured / square cut jacket (TF, Brioni, Zegna) will eliminate or minimize this issue.

I am getting married later this year and have been considering a bespoke suit for the occasion, mostly to ensure that I can ensure a perfect fit, i.e. no collar roll or collar gap, which is my biggest issue with OTR suits. But weddings are obviously quite expensive, and the bespoke tailor I am considering charges upwards of $5,000 for a fully bespoke suit. The other option I am considering is a Tom Ford suit, which I can purchase on eBay / on sale for under $2,000, saving me some considerable money. I know that TF suits are generally very structured, especially compared to the suits I currently own.

I've also heard anecdotally that the first bespoke suit with a tailor never turns out as well as the second or third - I'm not sure if investing $4,500+ and 4-6 months into a series of fittings only to be a bit let down with the result is the best use of my money.

Obviously I would take any OTR suit to an alterations tailor, but if major surgery is required it might make more sense to go bespoke. A related question I have is whether collar shortening / raising the back / whatever is needed to eliminate the collar roll will throw off the balance of the jacket.

A long winded question but curious if folks have thoughts!

I am broad, big-chested, and have high square shoulders and look like "Mini-bouncer" ( I am 5' 8") in padded-shoulder, structured jackets. I stick to Ivy or Neapolitan style.

 

[Despos]

Main cause, but not the only cause, of a roll under the collar is square shoulders.
Look at the shoulder of a jacket pattern and notice the front and back shoulder lines are angled; sloping from the neck to the shoulder point.
Your shoulder has a degree of slope from neck to shoulder point.
the jacket slope and your shoulder slope need to be parallel for a proper fit and comfort.
The alteration is to open the shoulder and adjust the slope of the jacket to match the slope of your shoulder.
This can be adjusted but with limits. The ambition of your tailor is a variable as well. Can turn into a time consuming alteration when you have to open the sleeves or need to shorten the collar.
Altered a jacket for extremely square shoulders and had to remove the back to raise it because it did affect the balance. This was an anomaly and only happened once.
Getting a suit made is a commitment of time and money and the results vary from tailor to tailor.
You won’t know what the suit will look like or how it will fit or if you will like it until it’s finished.

 

[Jsm87]

Main cause, but not the only cause, of a roll under the collar is square shoulders.
Look at the shoulder of a jacket pattern and notice the front and back shoulder lines are angled; sloping from the neck to the shoulder point.
Your shoulder has a degree of slope from neck to shoulder point.
the jacket slope and your shoulder slope need to be parallel for a proper fit and comfort.
The alteration is to open the shoulder and adjust the slope of the jacket to match the slope of your shoulder.
This can be adjusted but with limits. The ambition of your tailor is a variable as well. Can turn into a time consuming alteration when you have to open the sleeves or need to shorten the collar.
Getting a suit made is a commitment of time and money and the results vary from tailor to tailor.
You won’t know what the suit will look like or how it will fit or if you will like it until it’s finished.

How can one find out if the roll is caused by square shoulders, short neck or forward shoulders? I have a collar roll on all jackets and I tried to lower the collar on some MTM jackets and it was even more noticeable. However, the rolls in my case are not wider than the jacket collar and also go lower on the upper back.

 

[Despos]

How can one find out if the roll is caused by square shoulders, short neck or forward shoulders? I have a collar roll on all jackets and I tried to lower the collar on some MTM jackets and it was even more noticeable. However, the rolls in my case are not wider than the jacket collar and also go lower on the upper back.

Could be a combination of those.
Prominent shoulder blades is another common cause but has a different method to correct it.
An experienced cutter or fitter can determine this visually.

 

[Jsm87]

Could be a combination of those.
Prominent shoulder blades is another common cause but has a different method to correct it.
An experienced cutter or fitter can determine this visually.

Right, I remember I did read some of your posts about prominent shoulder blades, but it seems that this is one issue that can't be fixed with (most) MTM.

 

[Despos]

Because it’s as much about the construction/sewing method as the cutting. How the shoulders and back are shaped and sewn matters.
A limitation of MTM production