Leather Quality and Properties

VegTan · Jul 10, 2013

Trompe le Monde said:
This site seems to suggest the opposite
http://www.rancourtandcompany.com/leathers

although in my (admittedly cursory) searching in the past, ive never found full consensus on the various definitions of suede and suede-like materials

Mohave is usually called roughout leather, and it is not calfskin but steerhide.
http://www.redwingheritage.com/legend/#&f=&m=/partial/leather/roughout-leather&s=leather

http://www.rancourtandcompany.com/leathers#mohave

Mohave — Waterproof and stain resistant suede with a shorter and finer nap. Used by the military for soldiers boots. The grain side is buffed to remove imperfections and leaves a soft feel, great for unlined shoes or boots.
Tannery: S.B. Foot Tannery - Red Wing, MN USA
Type: Full Grain Suede, grain side is buffed
Feel: Dry, moderately firm
Finish: Short nap

http://www.rancourtandcompany.com/blake-chukka-olive-mohave-suede.html

clee1982 · Jul 10, 2013

patrickBOOTH said:
I think the deer bone thing is bullshit.

the "deer" part probably the bone socked with oil for application part might not be, though I am sure there are other ways, including just do it manually with a piece of towel dipped in oil...

clee1982 · Jul 10, 2013

Munky said:
I was sad enough to read through Elmer Bliss' patent application for a shoe breaking in device. Why do shoe shops not offer a 'hand' version of this, for new shoes? I was given advice about bending shoes from VegTan and wurger on this but have yet to find it on any other site or in shoemakers' video clips.

Maybe something to do with return policy?

Numbernine · Jul 10, 2013

patrickBOOTH said:
I think the deer bone thing is bullshit.

I don't think it's total bullshit . It just is what it is . A found object that just happens to have the right shape and abrasive qualities to make an excellent tool for smoothing leather . No more "magic" than a horsehair shoe brush. I have one. Shell owners like the because shell responds favorably to the compression of surface fibers and the bone does that well. I would say you could probably accomplish the same thing with a lathe turned piece of the right hardwood . Ages ago some bronze age dude figured this out . Voila! Magic bone

RDiaz · Jul 10, 2013

Quote:

According to this, Carmina would use poor quality leather (it wrinkles a bit when I press on it). How disappointing

Although I'm not convinced that it should not wrinkle at all, that seems unreal. The wrinkles are very fine in any case, nowhere near the left picture in that example.

DWFII · Jul 10, 2013

VegTan said:
Mohave is usually called roughout leather, and it is not calfskin but steerhide.
http://www.redwingheritage.com/legend/#&f=&m=/partial/leather/roughout-leather&s=leather

In this case the reason the nap is "shaggier" is that the animal is older (might very well have been female as well, despite the name) . An older animal will always have a coarser fiber mat even in the corium. Which is why calf skin is considered the premier leather.

Might underscore the fact that the mojave is a "reverse calf" or in this case a reverse cow.

patrickBOOTH · Jul 10, 2013

englade321 said:
I don't think it's total bullshit . It just is what it is . A found object that just happens to have the right shape and abrasive qualities to make an excellent tool for smoothing leather . No more "magic" than a horsehair shoe brush. I have one. Shell owners like the because shell responds favorably to the compression of surface fibers and the bone does that well. I would say you could probably accomplish the same thing with a lathe turned piece of the right hardwood . Ages ago some bronze age dude figured this out . Voila! Magic bone

I have heard of people using the back of a spoon to get the same effect. The whole deer bone thing is hokey.

RDiaz said:
According to this, Carmina would use poor quality leather (it wrinkles a bit when I press on it). How disappointing

Although I'm not convinced that it should not wrinkle at all, that seems unreal. The wrinkles are very fine in any case, nowhere near the left picture in that example.

Well, imho, Carmina does use poor quality leather. I handled a few of them and the leather looks very plasticy compared to higher end shoes. Even C&J Handgrade. I mean their lasts are nice, but anything other than Horween Shell looks cheap. I said this elsewhere and I was almost beheaded. I mean it makes sense, they are cheaper shoes. Also, FWIW, my Corthay's wrinkle like this when pushed on and flexed. Those shoes are probably in the worst condition of all of mine and they got babied and are some of the newest pairs I have. I think Corthay's are all-show-no-go honestly.

JermynStreet · Jul 10, 2013

patrickBOOTH said:
I think the deer bone thing is bullshit.

I agree. I mentioned this in the Alden thread but nobody could give me an answer as to why a deer bone creates any different sort of smoothing effect than a spoon. Deer bones are the snake oil of shell cordovan shoe salesmen. A quick way to make an extra $40 from a person who just bought shell and is neurotically trying to figure out the best way to preserve fresh horse ass. Perhaps DWFII or Glenjay can chime in on this, but no scientific basis (to my knowledge) supporting deer bone superiority has ever been proffered in this argument.

MyOtherLife · Jul 10, 2013

JermynStreet said:
patrickBOOTH said:

I think the deer bone thing is bullshit.

Click to expand...

I agree. I mentioned this in the Alden thread but nobody could give me an answer as to why a deer bone creates any different sort of smoothing effect than a spoon. Deer bones are the snake oil of shell cordovan shoe salesmen. A quick way to make an extra $40 from a person who just bought shell and is neurotically trying to figure out the best way to preserve fresh horse ass. Perhaps DWFII or Glenjay can chime in on this, but no scientific basis (to my knowledge) supporting deer bone superiority has ever been proffered in this argument.

Which materials are you thinking of when you compare a deer bone to a spoon? Stainless steel, silver, wood, plastic, teflon, other, etc? Please specify. Be mindful that certain materials may affect the leather in a negative or undesired or unexpected way. There may well be chemistry involved in the equation. For example, did you know that you can literally change the colour of some leathers with steel wool alcohol and vinegar? This may be loosely related to the boning-spooning topic. Here is an interesting article on one 'Blackening' process >> http://www.dererstezug.com/blackeningboots.htm
Rubbing wet leather as opposed to dry leather can also produce different results. Rubbing damp Calf leather is called burnishing and will permanently darken the rubbed areas. Deer boning, to my knowledge, is primarily recommended for shell cordovan leathers. Boning on Calf leather may, possible stretch the leather whilr 'smoothening' it. One possible reason for the different results is that leather is (usually) a tanned animal skin, whereas shell cordovan is a tanned subcutaneous membrane. While both bone and wood are pourous, the pours on a deer bone will be far finer than the grain of wood, unless it is a polished hardwood with the right shape for servicing shoes. I would also like to read what DWF has say about it as I respect his knowledge.
:lurk:

patrickBOOTH · Jul 10, 2013

I don't do either the spoon, or the deer bone. I simply brush shell cordovan and use lexol on the vamp and renovateur and wax on the rest. I think the deer bone is unnecessary.

clee1982 · Jul 10, 2013

or more like why "deer", not "chicken", "cow", "horse" on and on...

patrickBOOTH · Jul 10, 2013

How about a good ole #2 pencil?

MyOtherLife · Jul 10, 2013

patrickBOOTH said:
I don't do either the spoon, or the deer bone. I simply brush shell cordovan and use lexol on the vamp and renovateur and wax on the rest. I think the deer bone is unnecessary.

I don't doubt you Patrick. It probably is unnecessary for a number of reasons; you have an established wardrobe and are unlikely to wear any single pair of shoes as much as a neophyte would. Also, I would wager that you use shoe trees when the shoes are not in use and that you perform regular maintenance. You probably walk like a prince as opposed to another gent who may be comparatively rough or even cro-magnon on his shoes. These factors may also be playing a role into the non-necessity of boning.

clee1982 said:
or more like why "deer", not "chicken", "cow", "horse" on and on...

Good question. I would like to know that myself. I would also like to know if the cartilage on a bone is of any use in these matters.

patrickBOOTH said:
How about a good ole #2 pencil?

When you say #2, what are you referring to? 2H (hard) or 2B (soft) or something other? or are you simply interested in the pencil wood as a dowel of sorts? in which case I would highly discourage this method.

Personally, I have no deer bone here. I have used at times, and only on dry leather (not shell), a small rounded piece of walnut wood or on occasion a stainless teaspoon. Both gave satisfactory results in minimizing wrinkles on calf. Perhaps the deer bone has some historical signifigance as well as possessing practical virtues.

chogall · Jul 10, 2013

RDiaz said:
According to this, Carmina would use poor quality leather (it wrinkles a bit when I press on it). How disappointing

Although I'm not convinced that it should not wrinkle at all, that seems unreal. The wrinkles are very fine in any case, nowhere near the left picture in that example.

Note that in the picture, he pressed ever so slightly. It's not like hes bending the leather all the way in/out.

Carmina produces mediocre shoes using mediocre materials on mediocre designs. If anything I would rather get Alden or AE for the same price point but with much more character; or bite the bullet to get Vass at $100 more.

Numbernine · Jul 10, 2013

Actually I have used deer bone,pencils, hardwood dowles , and spoons all to similar results . 4 out of 10 americans believe in creationism . You are surprised by "magic deer bones"

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